60-1 users must read

[hyboost]

i had a 60-1 stage 3 in an 63. housing. I made 479 @ 25lbs. i loved this turbo now its in my cousins galant. i ve gone to a t-66. NOW can u say lag I've only ran 10 lbs so far no time to go to the dyno

 

[dyezak]

Originally posted by rm2932


What boost level was this dyno at? And what was the horse at say 10 or 15psi? you can see if the turbo stays effiecent with this equation:

low boost horse * (desired psi + 14.7) / ( base psi + 14.7) = desired horse

If your car dyno falls off this pattern you are maxing something out.

HAHA, this is Matt Lennon's dyno pull...he's an cool guy but the car is really ghetto. I remember helping him tune it on that setup before he got his cams and before he went to the dyno...he was seein some massive airflow. Oh and to answer the question...it was between 30-33psi. That's on a stock 1g bottom end and he runs it on pump gas, with ZERO knock. The dyno was done on C16 for safety though.

 

[jw]

30-33psi on pump gas with zero knock. Am I missing something here?

 

[dyezak]

Hell, that's what I asked myself when I saw his logs. I checked to make sure the damn sensor was connected (it was) then I checked to make sure it was alive (hitting the intake mani with a wrench), it was. It was amazing...ZERO knock. I can't tell you how it was done, other than magic.

 

[NosLaser]

I just figured I would comment in this thread because I think the general scope is getting quite out of hand. This guy Rob Cadle has actually hit the nail right on the head. Everything he has stated is 100% true, and is exactly what I have been saying about the 60-1 for the past 2 years now. He is ABSOLUTELY correct in saying it is not ideal for a small displacement high boost engine. The 60-1 moves a lot of air at a low boost level, therefore making it a perfect turbo for say a mild twin turbo setup on a Viper, or a built V8 motor. Yes, you can make the 60-1 with proper tune make horsepower...and I don't think anyone has disputed that fact. We have proof of that right here on the board with McLaren55's car. He has even gone and made good power on pump gas. Yes it is possible, but there are better options out there for our motors. Theory is something that I think is thrown around like a red-headed stepchild, and all the wrong theories are disputed. It's a theory that you can only make 300HP on a small 16g. It's a theory that you can't run more than 14 pounds of boost on a stock fuel pump. Those are both theories that all the knowledgeable guys know are crap because we have all made more than 300HP on a small 16g, and all ran more than 14psi on our stock fuel pumps. The point I am getting to, is that a bunch of idiots made up the first two theories, but some really intelligent people took the time to really understand what they were reconciling, and came up with some really good theories. To completely shoot something down because it is merely a 'theory' and hasn't been proven in the real world is kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm not saying to go and rip all the 60-1's off of your cars, but at least take the theory with a grain of salt and understand where it's coming from. The theory is very factual, and the ONLY reason the 60-1 became as popular as it did was because at the time of it's introduction, it was about the only turbo available that would make decent horsepower, and still be able to spool up on a 4 cylinder. The import community didn't have the tunability or plain and simple know-how that we do today. The 60-1 was a band-aid turbo that worked at the time, and never really faded away because people are so afraid to try new things. Theory is good people. Theory is what makes people try new things and make advancements. Afterall, before a turbo is ever manufactured, somebody, somewhere has to have an original idea to say 'Hey, I think this will work better than that' and that is ALL based on theory. Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

 

[Yellow4g63]

well said.

 

[jayntguru]

Rob wrote that almost two years ago. I used to tell people to avoid the 60-1 because of it.

We all know what is happening on paper isn't happening in real life.

Now I don't tell people to avoid that wheel anymore.

 

[Z1500]

I talk to pretty much the smartest people in the turbo industry on a regular basis. We all agree that the 60-1 map looks like crap, but bottom line is it's one of the greatest compressor wheels of all time. It was the only compressor wheel carried over into the GT30 series of turbos, all the other GT wheels are new from the ground up. It just works.

Kevin
www.agpturbo.com

 

[HighPsi91]

HP and track numbers.... thats all that matters

The turbo that I am running flows about the same as the 60-1 but is much more efficient at higher boost levels (thus my reason for choosing it). However there are several 60-1 cars out there making more power and running quicker than me. They obviously work quite well... and certainly work better than the paper work would suggest. Compressor maps should always be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion.

 

[TSi92]

My ex's car has a 60-1 stage 2 70 A/R and all the supporting mods to make it dyno 500+ whp. It sucked in a vacuum hose and it now has 3 bent fins. What wheel you guys recommend to put in that 70 housing? The turbo is about to be shipped to turbonetics for a full rebuild and compressor wheel replacement. And yes the lag was terrible, even with the stage 2 turbine. The car will sport my BR20G for now because mine's down.

 

[hazardousgst]

Well, that dyno sheet floating around is mine...

That dyno pull was on 27psi, 3 gals pump, 4 gals c16, LOTS of knock, timing was around 14-17deg.. (due to the pump gas)... a WARPED HEAD, and no fan in front of the car

The tranny is outta the car right now, i should have it back together in about 2 weeks, I'm going back to the dyno with 34psi, straight c16, and a bigger exhaust housing on the turbo, I expect over 500 WHP

On the dyno sheet you'll note the dropoff in power, if you looked at the mods, I'm running all stock 1g head/intake mani/TB, a sheet metal intake manifold is in the works as is a fully worked head...I'm trying to see just how much i can get out of this turbo, but I'm at the point now where I'm gonna need to build the bottom end..

I will more than likely do the head and intake manifold while the transmission is out, I'll have new dyno sheets up very soon..(and some timeslips as soon as the tracks open back up)


Oh, and for the record, at 17psi on pumpgas UNTUNED (1.025 o2 volts) with no cool down, it put out 341 WHP... I'll be doing one more pumpgas dyno soon @21psi to see if i can put out over 400 - the dynosheet can be seen at http://red97gst.5u.com/newcarpics/

 

[hazardousgst]

Originally posted by dyezak


HAHA, this is Matt Lennon's dyno pull...he's an cool guy but the car is really ghetto. I remember helping him tune it on that setup before he got his cams and before he went to the dyno...he was seein some massive airflow. Oh and to answer the question...it was between 30-33psi. That's on a stock 1g bottom end and he runs it on pump gas, with ZERO knock. The dyno was done on C16 for safety though.

No, I was running 26-27psi on the street with no knock... before the head warped...

the dyno was 27psi on 3gals pump, 4 gals c16, and it was knockin like a #####.. but again, the head is warped, and there was no source of cold air for the intercooler...

the bottom end is stock 92, i assembled it.. plans for the winter include a built motor..

 

[Kevin Jewer]

341 isnt bad at 17 psi. At 21 on the SBR M50 (also untuned and with ridiculous knock (5-7 degrees)) I only did 326 AWD WHP.

 

[turbotalon92]

Originally posted by NosLaser
I just figured I would comment in this thread because I think the general scope is getting quite out of hand. This guy Rob Cadle has actually hit the nail right on the head. Everything he has stated is 100% true, and is exactly what I have been saying about the 60-1 for the past 2 years now. He is ABSOLUTELY correct in saying it is not ideal for a small displacement high boost engine. The 60-1 moves a lot of air at a low boost level, therefore making it a perfect turbo for say a mild twin turbo setup on a Viper, or a built V8 motor. Yes, you can make the 60-1 with proper tune make horsepower...and I don't think anyone has disputed that fact. We have proof of that right here on the board with McLaren55's car. He has even gone and made good power on pump gas. Yes it is possible, but there are better options out there for our motors. Theory is something that I think is thrown around like a red-headed stepchild, and all the wrong theories are disputed. It's a theory that you can only make 300HP on a small 16g. It's a theory that you can't run more than 14 pounds of boost on a stock fuel pump. Those are both theories that all the knowledgeable guys know are crap because we have all made more than 300HP on a small 16g, and all ran more than 14psi on our stock fuel pumps. The point I am getting to, is that a bunch of idiots made up the first two theories, but some really intelligent people took the time to really understand what they were reconciling, and came up with some really good theories. To completely shoot something down because it is merely a 'theory' and hasn't been proven in the real world is kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm not saying to go and rip all the 60-1's off of your cars, but at least take the theory with a grain of salt and understand where it's coming from. The theory is very factual, and the ONLY reason the 60-1 became as popular as it did was because at the time of it's introduction, it was about the only turbo available that would make decent horsepower, and still be able to spool up on a 4 cylinder. The import community didn't have the tunability or plain and simple know-how that we do today. The 60-1 was a band-aid turbo that worked at the time, and never really faded away because people are so afraid to try new things. Theory is good people. Theory is what makes people try new things and make advancements. Afterall, before a turbo is ever manufactured, somebody, somewhere has to have an original idea to say 'Hey, I think this will work better than that' and that is ALL based on theory. Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

Man this is great to see that someone thinks it might be a good idea to try something different.

 

[GRNDSM]

Originally posted by 95GSXracer
341 isnt bad at 17 psi. At 21 on the SBR M50 (also untuned and with ridiculous knock (5-7 degrees)) I only did 326 AWD WHP.

Yes, but Kevin, that dyno was reading too low... Add ~17% and you get around 380hp, that would be comprable to most other dynos.

Leon
RR

 

[Tevenor]

Theory and Trials are 2 sides of the same coin. Theory is meant to be followed by a trial. Make a hypothesis and test it. Sometimes your hypothesis is right, sometimes its wrong. Same goes for trials. When you actually go out there and do it, your results feed back into theory.

It's a feedback loop that narrows itself down. This is happening with a lot of new turbo's as well. The Theoretical numbers are high, now someone needs the balls to try it and either prove or disprove the theory. Just like what has happened with the 60-1.

 

[Slowboy]

Man this is great to see that someone thinks it might be a good idea to try something different.

I agree... 100% HOWEVER....

If you make a statement as NOS did ( which I liked ) please feel free to enlighten us what you would do.....

A 60-1 with the right setup, in a 4cyl dsm... has gone over 144 MPH with no nitrous... So lets re-invent the wheel.... no pun intended.

Regards,

Mike Huml
aka...slowboy

PS....... no flames, I will not answer I see what goes on in here...

 

[turbotalon92]

Originally posted by Slowboy


I agree... 100% HOWEVER....

If you make a statement as NOS did ( which I liked ) please feel free to enlighten us what you would do.....

A 60-1 with the right setup, in a 4cyl dsm... has gone over 144 MPH with no nitrous... So lets re-invent the wheel.... no pun intended.

Regards,

Mike Huml
aka...slowboy

PS....... no flames, I will not answer I see what goes on in here...

I tried enlightning on what I am doing, but just got a bunch of people telling me I am making a stupid decision.

I guess from now on I will do my own thing and keep it to myself.

Not flaming, I actually like to carry on constructive conversations. I like the idea of some new turbos on the market. If it weren't for new setups, we would all be running 20g's. Keep up the good work!

 

[TSi92]

Nothing wrong with 20g's Like I have always said... You can't argue with a dyno sheet and a timeslip. 60-1 might not look good on paper but like slowboy said, it has gone over 140 mph. Nuff said...

 

[DSMu4ia]

Originally posted by hazardousgst
Well, that dyno sheet floating around is mine...

That dyno pull was on 27psi, 3 gals pump, 4 gals c16, LOTS of knock, timing was around 14-17deg.. (due to the pump gas)... a WARPED HEAD, and no fan in front of the car

The tranny is outta the car right now, i should have it back together in about 2 weeks, I'm going back to the dyno with 34psi, straight c16, and a bigger exhaust housing on the turbo, I expect over 500 WHP

On the dyno sheet you'll note the dropoff in power, if you looked at the mods, I'm running all stock 1g head/intake mani/TB, a sheet metal intake manifold is in the works as is a fully worked head...I'm trying to see just how much i can get out of this turbo, but I'm at the point now where I'm gonna need to build the bottom end..

I will more than likely do the head and intake manifold while the transmission is out, I'll have new dyno sheets up very soon..(and some timeslips as soon as the tracks open back up)


Oh, and for the record, at 17psi on pumpgas UNTUNED (1.025 o2 volts) with no cool down, it put out 341 WHP... I'll be doing one more pumpgas dyno soon @21psi to see if i can put out over 400 - the dynosheet can be seen at http://red97gst.5u.com/newcarpics/

Get on IRC so I can ask you some questions about lag/fwd with that turbo. (Or Just email me

The last ####ing thing I need for my car is the turbo...and the choice is driving me up a f-ing wall.

Turbo works..no doubt about it. Looks like with the t04s housing it's a little laggier than the to4e's.

Your dyno plot looks a little laggy..I want 20psi by 4200 or so, in a full garrett. 400whp on pump, 500whp on race. Full garrett 60-1 just seems a TAD too laggy. All the other options are either too small or too big. I'm going full garrett for sure.. as it's far easier.

 

[hazardousgst]

bah, im on irc, just message me, ill probably be sleeping tho

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Your dyno plot looks a little laggy..I want 20psi by 4200 or so, in a full garrett. 400whp on pump, 500whp on race. Full garrett 60-1 just seems a TAD too laggy.

To an extent you are going to NEED lag to be able hook that thing up. I am getting the numbers you are looking for with my setup. I wouldn't consider it laggy at all.

 

[mclaren55]

Well, my car hits 23#'s by 4200-4300, and its a 60-1. I make 435WHP on pump, 526.6whp on C16. So I am thinking the 60-1 would probably fit right in for your setup.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Originally posted by rdrkt

To an extent you are going to NEED lag to be able hook that thing up. I am getting the numbers you are looking for with my setup. I wouldn't consider it laggy at all.

Yes, Lag @ 4k is what I was shooting for. Much more and you (or I) will have to downshift to the next lowest gear, which will put it in instant wheelspin category.

The 7cm 60-1's is a PERFECT turbo for me. However I don't want the mitsu manifold. Cost concern for one, and ease of changing wheels is another. When you throw on the .63 it throws the lag up a tad, and if you jump to an .84 (or whatever it is) it nearly makes it undriveable.

I dunno, I'm still thinking. I have a month or so to go before I REALLY need to make my guesses wisely.


Setup will be a 9:1 4g63 bottom end, and worked everything else. Of course somethings add lag, and some decrease. I would however hope for better spool numbers than a stock 8.5:1 motor.

 

[smack]

Since we're all giving opinions, I might as well give my 2 cents. I personally think the T3/T4 50 trim stage 3/.63ar or 60 trim would be more than capable of the kind of power range that 90% of us in the DSM community would want. The 50-60 trim turbo package has been proven to make big hp, just look at the DSM drag times, and there are few guys that have gone into the 10's with stock 1g heads! If your choice was to go to a fully built long block (stroker or nitrous) then a 60 - 1 would be the way to go, that would help the lag between shift problems with that turbo. My opinion is without a fully built motor the 50-6- trim would be the way to go (remember this is just an opinion). The 60-1 is an excellent turbo, if you have the displacement to support it. I had a Buick Grand National and I ran a 60-1 and getting it up on boost was not a problem, but that was with 231ci. I ran 10.89 at 126 with the 60-1 with my Buick, I guess my point is that with the right set-up that turbo has good potential with a fully built 2.0 liter! Just be careful when going up with compression the response becomes better, but the tuning window becomes a lot smaller, meaning going faster or blowing up the motor. Anyway, good luck with your decisions.