4G63 Engine Specs?

[JrRelic]

That has to be one of the best posts I have ever read!

Aluminum runs about $0.75 - $0.85 a pound. A cubic foot of Aluminum is roughly 150#(lighter than that but I don't remember how much), so probably $700 - $800 buck for that.

Steel about $0.55 A cubic foot of steel is roughly 490#, so probably $100 - $200.

Those prices are estimates I have not done much past initial weight estimates.


It is not a 4G63 engine running 30 PSI, but a different engine in his '77 firebird. (That car is fun as $*&# to drive.

Anybody remember the spacingi between the cylinders?

 

[Eagle 5]

That has to be one of the best posts I have ever read!

Aluminum runs about $0.75 - $0.85 a pound. A cubic foot of Aluminum is roughly 150#(lighter than that but I don't remember how much), so probably $700 - $800 buck for that.

Steel about $0.55 A cubic foot of steel is roughly 490#, so probably $100 - $200.

Those prices are estimates I have not done much past initial weight estimates.


It is not a 4G63 engine running 30 PSI, but a different engine in his '77 firebird. (That car is fun as $*&# to drive.

Anybody remember the spacingi between the cylinders?

the spacing between the bores? I dont know off the top of my head but I can measure when I get home. I have calipers that are accurate to .001" so numbers should be fairly close. Or do you mean the spacing from center bore to center bore?

 

[JrRelic]

If you have the material thikness between the that would be great other wise the center spacing would work.

 

[boostedinaz]

not to but in or try to stir thigns up but some of the crap people say on here stupid. First, he wants to do something that no one else has or maybe really thought of much. So instead of people trying to help him (some have though as much as they can) they tell him to not do it, dont waste money and just go with what works. Why, so he can be like every other DSM'er out there? Nothing would be interesting if everyone went with the same setups all the time. Ya there are certain things that work best but whats wrong with trying something new? REGARDLESS of whether it would cost them thousands of dollars more than if they just went the way everyone else did.

I know this comes up all the time but remember, everything made for these cars were designed and tested somewhere and new things come out. The FP turbos were built because they wanted something large that would fit without screwing with the water pipe and making a new turbine housing etc. What if they asked people what they thought and then listened when others said, dont do it, costs too much. just go with what is known to work. That is bull crap.

Now for the question asked, the best bet you will have is to get a block from a junkyard or buying it from someone. Regardless if ou have to go across country to get one. NO ONE on here has the dimensions you are looking for. Actually I doubt anyone outside of mitsu has what you are looking for. Get a block, make your own casting etc of it, and figure out what you can change... like getting rid of where the balance shafts go as thats more iron not needed and more space. I believe what you are looking for can only be attained by getting a block. Unless you have some way of getting the casting molds mitsu uses, you wont find any dimensions anywhere (if you do, please share with others)

Now, go do or work on what you are doing. Who cares if no one else has ever done it or if there proven ways of doing something already. As the moto of my job goes

"Imagination at Work" Without imagination, nothing new will EVER be created. No new turbos, no more efficient designs, faster spooling, cooler running turbos, better intercoolers with less pressure drops, new materials etc.

Look at all the work Magnus did. You think they listened when others told them not to do stuff? or any of the other vendors? Buschur started somewhere. The archer brothers started somewhere. Tym Switzer started somewhere.

Good luck with your project and hopefully you find out something new, even if its not what you originally planned on.

Im gald you bring up these points. The reason people give this guy shit is becasue most of the "ideas" and "great thinking" never come to light. It is just wasted space on this board becasue he will either never do it, or if he does he most likely wont give and updates so the post was useless in the first place. Now again, this is just the majority, and if this guys actually does it more power to him, but I honestly doubt it.

I am also gald you brought up all the big names in DSM land. Here is another reason why most of us dont like these threads. The people you mentioned never post asking how or if they shoudl do these things. FP never post and wonders what if they tried to mate a 50 trim Garret wheel to a Mitsu housing or of anyone knows if it will fit. They just went and did it because they have a logical thought process and are very good at what they do. hence the "Green." Same for Magnus, Buschur, and everyone else that you brought up. There is a big difference between a hardcore racer trying to make parts for better performance, longevity, strength, or what ever else they made need, as opposed to some guy who has an "idea" and needs all this info to make his garage project work. The big names have alot of experiance.

Then it comes down to common sense and logic. How much, in reality, will this block save weight wise?? Will it be stronger then the stock piece?? How much would it cost to buy one?? Will there be any extra maintenance?? The list goes on and on. The most important would be, how was all this determined. Will this guy do a ton of R&D to make sure it wont fail, even with HUGE power???

These are all things that should be thought about. The stock block is amazing so I dont see a need to make one for strength reasons. If Shep can go 8's on a stock block no one one this board needs a stronger one. If he is doing it for weight savings there are a ton of better ways to drop some pounds than make an entirely new block. Plus, like I have asked before, will this light weight block handle the performance needs AND last as long?? If not then I dont see a need to spend money on a block that is lighter if it has to be replaced at all. Finally price. DSMers are notorious for being thrifty, actually cheap, so if the stock block they have will go mid 8's with out a problem, and they have there gutted AWD car down to 2800 lbs race weight, then why would they spend money on this aluminum block. If any of you guys have seen how much an aluminum block is that can handle high HP numbers, they arent cheap, so I doubt his will come close to be considered a "good deal" especially since he wants to CNC it out of a billet core.

Good luck.

 

[Eagle 5]

Good point and actually had a similar discussion in another post about these things actually ever happening. Also, true about the big names never asking and just going out and doing it etc. There are differences and I will agree that the people who normally end up doing it are the one who dont ask others (at least, not as public about it).

I guess my main beef is people flaming others for wanting to try something new. Ya, the flaming wastes space and time reading it, but the same could also be said for the other. Almost a double edge sword, goes either way.

but, I say power to the guy and I think people should at least try to help, while also letting them know there is not necesarily a need since people already go 8's on the stock block. But, letting them know if a nice friendly manner as opposed to just straight saying, your wasting your money, dont do it etc etc.

hopefully that explains more of what I mean.

 

[GPTourer]

Interesting. Does Brent Rau use a stock block too? I'm thinking Vinny Ten, Paul Efantis, Ara Arslanian and all the other Supra drivers use stock 2JZ blocks too. What I'm getting at it, just like you said the two platforms are probably the best out there for producing power. It will be interesting to see how the all new all aluminum replacement Mitsubishi has scheduled to replace the 4G will hold up under power users. I think the high dollar Chevy racing Bow Tie blocks are all aluminum too, but comparing the weight of a typical big/small block to a small 2.0L 4 or even 3.0L 6 means theres a lot more weight to be saved. The cost of doing this will outweigh the benefit IMO, and everyone else whos tried to develop hipo "crate" engine Mitsu never brings the goods. An interesting idea I think, but not worth the expense. I think its Toda that makes a replacement block for the Skyline, but I don't know if its aluminum and what benefits its supposed to have over the stock RB26 which is already capable of fantastic power.

 

[JrRelic]

A few of things:

1. I am doing this; the car is sitting in the driveway at home.

2. I am going to school to become an Automotive Engineer. I want to build and drive "fun car" for a living. And I have engineer friends that tell me I am a "true" engineer (creativity, thinking about different ways of doing something, analitical).

3. I ask so many questions of so many things that I have proven that there are dumb questions.

4. It's not about adding a little strength here, saving some weight there. It's about building something, and using it, making THAT better. How many of you can lay claim to that? This right here is what it's all about. It's not about being better than someone else, but better than I was before.

5. And this is a good place to start. The DSM platform is for the money, the best one out there. No if, ands, or buts, about it.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Interesting. Does Brent Rau use a stock block too? I'm thinking Vinny Ten, Paul Efantis, Ara Arslanian and all the other Supra drivers use stock 2JZ blocks too. What I'm getting at it, just like you said the two platforms are probably the best out there for producing power. It will be interesting to see how the all new all aluminum replacement Mitsubishi has scheduled to replace the 4G will hold up under power users. I think the high dollar Chevy racing Bow Tie blocks are all aluminum too, but comparing the weight of a typical big/small block to a small 2.0L 4 or even 3.0L 6 means theres a lot more weight to be saved. The cost of doing this will outweigh the benefit IMO, and everyone else whos tried to develop hipo "crate" engine Mitsu never brings the goods. An interesting idea I think, but not worth the expense. I think its Toda that makes a replacement block for the Skyline, but I don't know if its aluminum and what benefits its supposed to have over the stock RB26 which is already capable of fantastic power.

Most high-power 2JZ engines are partially to completly filled for additional strength. This becomes an issue once you get around 1500+whp. I believe all 4g powered cars runstock blocks, as in, not filled.

 

[boostedinaz]

A few of things:

1. I am doing this; the car is sitting in the driveway at home.

That means nothing. I have a Jeep in the driveway right now, doesnt mean it will win a rock crawling title.

2. I am going to school to become an Automotive Engineer. I want to build and drive "fun car" for a living. And I have engineer friends that tell me I am a "true" engineer (creativity, thinking about different ways of doing something, analitical).

Different isnt always better.

3. I ask so many questions of so many things that I have proven that there are dumb questions.

So have you thought about how you are going to create all the oil passages, bolt holes, thread types for those bolt holes, machining certain surfaces, what kind of main caps are you using, what about thermal expansion, making a block is a TON different than making a header or turbo. Ask Dart, Donovan, GMPP, World Products, and TA performance, they will give you a bit of incite as to what to look forward to.

4. It's not about adding a little strength here, saving some weight there. It's about building something, and using it, making THAT better. How many of you can lay claim to that? This right here is what it's all about. It's not about being better than someone else, but better than I was before.

I dotn think any of us want to lay claim to spending alot of money and time on something that isnt needed. If you arent trying to make it weigh less or be any strong then there is no point. This is just an excercise to see if it can be done nothing more. I would rather spend my time and money doing useful things to my car.


I hate to be rude, but for someone that thinks alot and does so like an engineer, you should have just picked up a block and worked on reverse engineering to get all your answers. Perhaps all of us just think like regular people are just not up to snuff. You getting ripped on becasue just like all the other dreams it probably wont happen. You have already shown that you dont really have a need for it and havent really thought about all the little technical shit, and those combined will bite you and end this project.

Again, if it is done please report back and I will be one of the first to pat you on the back.

 

[98autogstspyder]

I think its admirable to say tha your going to try and do something new, but just realize what your getting yourself into. Making an engine block is extremely difficult. Car companies pay their engineer teams millions of dollars to create a new engine. Why do you think Nissan and Infinity use their same 3.5 liter v6 in almost every car they make. It is just simply too costly to create a new engine like that. the 6g72 has been used for 15 years now that i know of. first the 3000gt and now the v6 eclipse. I think its a little over your head, but if you do decide to work on it keep us posted

Tyler

 

[JrRelic]

Yes I have thought about oil passages, bolt holes, thread types for those bolt holes, machining certain surfaces, and thermal expansion. And I have thought about which alloys of metal to use.

I thought about getting a block, but I have no place to store it and no way of getting it here. And as I said in a previous posting in this thread: I can't find one (I find that really wierd).

I'm sorry you feel that it's wasting money. I don't.

I guess unlike most I am not afriad to try.

 

[boostedinaz]

I thought about getting a block, but I have no place to store it and no way of getting it here. And as I said in a previous posting in this thread: I can't find one (I find that really wierd).

I'm sorry you feel that it's wasting money. I don't.

I guess unlike most I am not afriad to try.

OK, you are just not getting the point. WE DONT HAVE, AND WONT HAVE, ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED.

You continue to try and make it sound like we are a bunch of stupid kids scared to do something that is assinine. There is a HUGE difference between affraid and ignorant or just plane stupid.

So you have all this access to all these great machines and you think so well yet you dont even have a space to put a bare block. Your project isnt off to a great start by any means. Go to www.dsmtrader.com, the classifieds here, or hell I will even sell you and old block I have laying around for 75.00 plus shipping, then you can get every little bit of info you will ever need about the dimensions of a 4G63 block.

This is how most threads turn out. After a bit of questioning the truth will rise to the top. It goes from I have all this technology at my finger tips that I can use anytime and I want to use it. Then goes to, well I could get in casue the guy that ownes the shop was out today. Then, well I dont have a shop or even an extra 4 square feet to store a block, Then, the thread dies and all the "haters" have not been wrong or "haters", just people that have been around long enough to smell BS.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Kaablam!

 

[KPWSerpiente]

I thought about getting a block, but I have no place to store it and no way of getting it here. And as I said in a previous posting in this thread: I can't find one (I find that really wierd).

You cannot accomplish the first step to achieving your goal.

847-709-0530 <- AMS's number. Since you couldn't find a block, I figured I'd help you out with finding a number. They build mad tyte engines.

-T

 

[out there]

in my opinion, look at all of the great innovations throughout the years: traveling faster than 20mph, telegraph, telephone, camera, v8, radio, rotary engine, television, computer, i4, internet, etc etc etc

do you think that any of these things were invented because the masses demanded something new? do you think that the people who invented these things did so because they thought that they could make a buck? someone has to be the first to try something new, regardless of if s/he loses money on the deal, because money isn't the only thing that's important in cases like this.

for whatever reason this experiment is being held back, we're all potentially losing out. if this new block design does work, then i think it will be a huge change, it might give mitsubishi just the kick in the a$$ that they need to resurrect the 4g63 into something other than the 4g69 (that is the evo, right?).

the whole idea behind inventing something like this is not just for personal gain, but for the well-being of society and future use. i have my own ideas like this: new turbo design, different intake manifold designs, etc... the only downside is that i am not sure how to go about creating them and i choose to keep these ideas to myself until i can put them to work. i hope that you are able to make this idea work, more power to you and good luck.

i'm not flaming the flamers, i'm not defending this particular person, i'm just defending new ideas.

 

[boostedinaz]

in my opinion, look at all of the great innovations throughout the years: traveling faster than 20mph, telegraph, telephone, camera, v8, radio, rotary engine, television, computer, i4, internet, etc etc etc

do you think that any of these things were invented because the masses demanded something new? do you think that the people who invented these things did so because they thought that they could make a buck? someone has to be the first to try something new, regardless of if s/he loses money on the deal, because money isn't the only thing that's important in cases like this.

for whatever reason this experiment is being held back, we're all potentially losing out. if this new block design does work, then i think it will be a huge change, it might give mitsubishi just the kick in the a$$ that they need to resurrect the 4g63 into something other than the 4g69 (that is the evo, right?).

the whole idea behind inventing something like this is not just for personal gain, but for the well-being of society and future use. i have my own ideas like this: new turbo design, different intake manifold designs, etc... the only downside is that i am not sure how to go about creating them and i choose to keep these ideas to myself until i can put them to work. i hope that you are able to make this idea work, more power to you and good luck.

i'm not flaming the flamers, i'm not defending this particular person, i'm just defending new ideas.

I agree that new ideas are great, but if they never come to light then it is just a waste of time and resources. I have alot of ideas, but I look at alot of variables to make sure that it is truly feasable. Regardless of if it is good idea or not I try to ask questions to see how far that person has thought it through. This guy does what 99% of people with "huge ideas" do. He comes up with a great idea and wants to make it for what ever reason and that will make the coolest person ever. The only problem is that he doesnt even have 4 extra sg/ft to put a block let alone anything else to make this project work. Like I have stated time and time again, the people who have made true inovations have never posted about and ask how to do it, they just did it. That is what sets them apart from Joey Engineer here.

You say we have alot to gain from him doing this, but as I pointed out, no we dont. Our block can hande 4 digit HP numbers and lost along time, so how is this going to be a huge improvement?

 

[JrRelic]

I have the plans all but done. All I need to do is fine-tune it with the final external dimensions. I have had them as far as they are, since I posted this thread. If I had the dimensions, I could get the material, get everything machined and be driving it before the ice is gone from the lakes in MN.

boostedinaz - It's a free country and you have the right to voice your opinion. But you are wrong that no one who has come up with any great ideas has asked for help. Thomas Edison had a staff of over 100 engineers, and they had almost 1000 prototypes before the got the light working. The gentleman who gave us the rotary engine went to Mercedes, Chrysler and Mazda for help to get his engine made.

Sometimes getting a new set of eyes can find something that was previously missed, and therefore get something that was working ok, or not at all, working better.

Case and point: I know someone (I have driven it) who has a car with a 16 Hp gas engine, it weighs less than 2000 Lbs and does 0-60 in 10 seconds and gets 50 - 100 MPG fuel economy. AND he has tried to sell this car to the major domestic manufactures since about 1977, but because they are stuck in the same boat that boostedinaz is they feel that what they have already is the only way to go.

I am not trying to be mean or anything but, dude lighten up.

 

[out there]

i was just suggesting that he might be onto something that could potentially give us some innovations in the future.

 

[boostedinaz]

I have the plans all but done. All I need to do is fine-tune it with the final external dimensions. I have had them as far as they are, since I posted this thread. If I had the dimensions, I could get the material, get everything machined and be driving it before the ice is gone from the lakes in MN.

boostedinaz - It's a free country and you have the right to voice your opinion. But you are wrong that no one who has come up with any great ideas has asked for help. Thomas Edison had a staff of over 100 engineers, and they had almost 1000 prototypes before the got the light working. The gentleman who gave us the rotary engine went to Mercedes, Chrysler and Mazda for help to get his engine made.

Sometimes getting a new set of eyes can find something that was previously missed, and therefore get something that was working ok, or not at all, working better.

Case and point: I know someone (I have driven it) who has a car with a 16 Hp gas engine, it weighs less than 2000 Lbs and does 0-60 in 10 seconds and gets 50 - 100 MPG fuel economy. AND he has tried to sell this car to the major domestic manufactures since about 1977, but because they are stuck in the same boat that boostedinaz is they feel that what they have already is the only way to go.

I am not trying to be mean or anything but, dude lighten up.

So you have made an exact copy of 4G63 block, CNC machined, in less then a month??? Ill believe it when I see it.


Again, for such a great thinker you are looking only at the litteral point not the over all meaning. I never said they didnt have help building parts, I said they didnt post asking how to do something. Notice you said that all those great things were built after asking numerous people that are VERY well skilled in there respective field. They didnt just put an ad in the paper and hope that someone with knowledge would help them build soemthing. Agian, why not just get a spare block and reverse engineer it with all you engineer buddies? Seems liek the best route to me.

No one seems to read and comprehend. A car that small that can knock down gas milage in that range would be a huge benefit. The problem is that he is trying to market it to a Corporattion that has to worry about things like paying share holders and making a profit. Something you should have thought about, yet let it slip past again. It was a succesful engineering excercise, but sales depends on alot more than just that. This is why concept cars change before production, but I am sure that was on your mind also. Trying to build an alternative to 4G63 block really has no benefit, it is already very stong and last for along time even under severe strain, so how is my thinking holding back some great feats of engineering?

If anything I am just skeptical and have asked many question that you, this aspiring engineer, have yet to answer, but it is "all but done."

How did you manage to CNC the oil passages, water passages, what about mating surfaces and bolt location? What kind of sleeves are you going to use and how long do you think this block will last under high boost? Are your tolerances better than factor or worse? The best for last. Did you even find a spare block to duplicate and make sure that this thing is correct?

 

[dsmpower1]

after you finish your block. what are your plans on testing it? are you planning on just dropping it in with stock internals and all other stock aspects of the 4g63. what crank are you running 6 or 7 bolt, turbo, awd, fwd? i'm just curious on the project, it sounds interesting.

 

[JrRelic]

I am planning on putting aftermarket parts only on the head using 4G63 the cylinder head. The block, crank, rods and pistons will be new. It is going into a '94 Eclispe FWD, until I can get a tranny that will be AWD.


boostedinaz - I never asked for more than the dimensions. You are asuming that I haven't thought of oil and coolant passages among other things, but they are part of the design to. I can't get any of the graphics to load into here or I would show you just how far along I am. As for the rest of the things I have to say to you I won't, I am restainging myself from stooping lower than I am. Unless you have anything of value to add you may stop posting now. I think you are being very petty about this.

 

[PharmEcis]

more power to you if you complete it. If you need measurements, PM me. I have a digital caliper accurate to .001 as well and I have a 7bolt block sitting in my garage.

 

[Defiant]

Case and point: I know someone (I have driven it) who has a car with a 16 Hp gas engine, it weighs less than 2000 Lbs and does 0-60 in 10 seconds and gets 50 - 100 MPG fuel economy.

Physically impossible with 16HP.

 

[JrRelic]

dude, I has driven it. And I said 16 Hp gas engine the whole thing has about 110 hp.

 

[RipperXX]

I as a kid always wanted to do this exact thing, be a R&D guy with the means and money to build engines from nothing, to try and fail experiment and learn all in search of the "perfect" engine.




Although if I were in search of the "Perfect" engine I would consider an inline 6, more rotateing mass, but one thing alot of import guys dont seem to understand with gearing you dont need a high reving engine, it's called torq, of corse it's a balanceing act, it just seems to me with modern electronics, cyro parts, jdm tyte fuel injection (sorry couldn't help it :laugh: ) etc. it would be possible to construct a torqy inline 6 that still has great power to redline, easier than a 4cyl.

I only bring this up because of the amount of money willing to be spent here. But again this is something I always wish I had the money to do, I used to be into pulse jet engines always reading as much as I could about them trying to think of new stuff since untill one german recently tuck it apon him self to try they had not been advanced in 50+ years, in a few yr's time he's made them capible of running 30x longer and some even valveless meaning i supose forever? (it's an engine that you can see though, how odd is that, weighs 6lb and puts out 100ft/lb thrust, talk about power to weight)