2g Upgrade path

[AOsipower]

First off I'd like to say hi to everyone as I am new to this site and this is my first post. I recently acquired a 1995 eclipse gsx with only 80,000 miles on it. I have been trying to take care of everything that is wrong with it before I modify it and have replaced the plugs, wires, lots of emission items/sensors and one front control arm which was bad. The clutch was going so I put in a Southbend TZ rated at 300 wheel hp. I also put in an autometer boost gauge because I know that is important for tuning. Other than that the car is bone stock.

I am not new to forums in general and have been heavily consumed in diesel performance for the past 5 or 6 years and diesel related forums. I know that by no means can you become an expert in anything overnight ( I still haven't scratched the surface of diesel tech yet in 5 years) which is why I am going to implore all you experts knowledge.

My goals for the car are as follows: I am most likely giving this car to my g/f, soon to be wife, since she has fallen in love with it since day one but i would like to upgrade it for her first. I would like a super reliable (no detonated motors please) about 300 whp daily driver and would prefer little to no tuning if possible. I would like a setup that once tuned will stay that way so I/she does not have to constantly mess with it to enjoy it. I did a search and found alot of upgrade paths, but almost everyone had different goals, I have also been looking at the tech section upgrade paths and would like to move in the direction of their "Stage one" path.

From what I have gathered I THINK (like I said totally newbie here) I need the following:
-Full 3 inch exhaust
-intake
-upgraded BOV
-Clutch (already have)
-possibly exhaust manifold/ o2 sensor housing
-Boost gauge (already have)
-Other gauges (wideband/egt) don't know if these are necessary?
-Upgraded turbo
-Possibly injectors (again don't know if these are necessary or what size I would need)
-Hard intercooler pipes at least for top
-some sort of upgrade intercooler, I was thinking larger side mount to retain stock appearance
-some type of fuel/ air management SAFC-II
-manual boost controller

other than this I dont know what else?

So far I have began acquiring some parts I am fairly certain I will need ( none of which are installed yet, and wont be until I have the correct supporting mods)
So far I got:
-MHI small 16g
-HKS SS BOV with recirc kit
-3in intake kit

So does this sound about right? Also I have no idea about all the little parts I might need. Like will the turbo bolt right up or do I need a new J pipe or other parts? Any info on little parts/ adapters that I might need would be awesome! Also brand preferences/ personal preferences help too. I am trying to do this for as cheap as possible (which is why I constantly check the classifieds) however I do know that in any type of performance you have to pay to play.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to try and cover everything. Thanks for taking the time to read it and help me out. Also for me first hand experience is best, so if you have personally run a part on your car and like it let me know.

Thanks again,
Alex

 

[vaboys2ndgen]

walbro 190lph fuel pump or an evo 8 pump will work for 300whp also if you upgraded the injectors to evo8s 560s or aftermarket 550s that would help you manage your goal without worry. evythingelse looks good

 

[BringBackDSM]

If you want to do little to no tuning, your best route would be a keydiver chip. It would be hard to get 300whp without injectors. The chip costs $175. Which is less then a safc will cost. You have a 95 which has a good chance of having an eprom ecu, which you would need. Someone can give you a link on how to tell if you have one, or you can search. Injectors, id say get some 650's for some extra room so you dont push the 550's to hard. Check out fuelinjectorclinic.com. Go to dsmchips.com to find out everything about the keydiver chips/eprom ecu.

More then likely you would need a walbro 190 fuel pump, which you can just throw in and not worry about. Wideband is not really necessary, but I would recommend a logger so you can check codes and stuff on your own, and check for knock through your timing. The chips will more then likely keep you from knocking though, so a logger is up to you.

I think you should know that alot of people have a hard time making 300whp on any of the 16g turbos. I dont care what anyone tells you. An easier way to get there would be to go the new fp 18g, or even the fp 20g, depending on how much you care about lag. There are also a bunch of varieties of 50 trims. The cheapest being the sbr g50 for $629. More then likely you will need to run 18-20psi on those turbos to reach your goal. For the 16g/18g/20g turbos, you can buy the 2g install kit which comes with everything you need to bolt it on.(forcedperformance.com)

Ive heard people say that keydiver chips do such a good job hat they have no knock at 20+psi on a 16g(bad pump gas turbo) that they do not need a fmic. Personally I would recommed one. Alot of people going for the stock look, go with the supra sidemount. Search that and you will find some good info.

You do not neccesarily need an exhaust manifold, although it would help reach your goal. An o2 housing would help reduce boost creep which is common for the turbos your looking at. You can also port the turbo and stock o2 housing to prevent boost creep.

Shop I recommend getting all the little parts from extremepsi.com becasue they have extremely fast shipping and usually the lowest prices, plus free shipping.

Other then that, everything looks good for your setup.

 

[AOsipower]

Thanks, I had planned on adding a Fuel pump but forgot to type that in. I was also thinking about the 190. I think it would be plenty big for my goals and if I got the 255 i would need a FPR correct? The simpler I can keep things the better. If the 190 will be enough I will probably go that direction.

 

[AOsipower]

I will definitely look into the chip because like I said little to no tuning would be ideal for me. And if the 16g wont get me to 300 thats fine. I guess i should have said whatever hp the turbo I have can make efficiently. I know that once the turbo is out of its map it will just blow hot air so if I can only get to 250 or 275 in the efficiency range of a small 16g thats fine with me. Id like to stick with the s16g though because that is what I have.

 

[BringBackDSM]

16g's can defiantly make over 300whp, but most people cant get it there.

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

Evo 3 16g's have been known to make 400whp with the right support mods, so you can definitely get 300whp with one. IMO you have a better chance of getting to 300whp with an evo 3 16g than a fp 18g.

 

[tlikethedrink]

Go big or go home. 2.1 destroked 42r. Do work son.

it sounds to me like hes trying to make best with what he gots. not build an engine.
besides you dont need to 'do' that much 'work' to get to his 300hp goals, 'son'.

 

[alice]

Walbro 255 needs an APFR because it can potentially over run your stock FPR.

 

[BringBackDSM]

Evo 3 16g's have been known to make 400whp with the right support mods, so you can definitely get 300whp with one. IMO you have a better chance of getting to 300whp with an evo 3 16g than a fp 18g.

How do you figure that? Is it the smaller wheel that flows less that makes more power? Dont make me pull up the evo3 16g dyno sheets.

Dont let people fool you. Two times has the 16g ever made more then 400whp, and that was guys with lots of time and money. Actually you know what I will post the 16g dyno sheets.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/156794-evoiii-16g-dyno-sheets.html
As you will see, most people struggle to get to 300whp and if they do its barely over.


While the fp18g is still new and unproven and ive only seen one dyno, its damn impressive.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/282323-dyno-stock-4g63-fp-18g-284whp-280wtq-maft.html

Take in mind this is at 14.5psi, tuning with a very limited tool.

 

[vaboys2ndgen]

Thanks, I had planned on adding a Fuel pump but forgot to type that in. I was also thinking about the 190. I think it would be plenty big for my goals and if I got the 255 i would need a FPR correct? The simpler I can keep things the better. If the 190 will be enough I will probably go that direction.

now if you can find an evo pump take it! haha you can usually find them all over the evo forums cause of ppl swapping to walbro 255s or supraTT pumps. walbro usually is louder makes this winding noise. and for 300whp an evo is more than enough also.

evo 16G will def. make the power your looking for. you said you already have a small 16G though.... dont swith keep it! its plenty for your goals.

anything else ask away.

 

[dsmconvict]

You will need a 2g install kit for the 16g. As for a smic look around for a MKIV TT Supra smic. 2.5" in/out and can support up to 400hp and for $100-$150 its your best bet. If you do infact have an eprom I'd agree with BringbackDSM and go with the keydiver chip from dsmchips.com and get a logger. If you ever want to get serious just get a WBo2 and a s-afc and tune away. I'm only like 30 min from quakertown so if you need help wrenchin shoot me a pm.


Chris

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

How do you figure that? Is it the smaller wheel that flows less that makes more power? Dont make me pull up the evo3 16g dyno sheets.

Dont let people fool you. Two times has the 16g ever made more then 400whp, and that was guys with lots of time and money. Actually you know what I will post the 16g dyno sheets.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/156794-evoiii-16g-dyno-sheets.html
As you will see, most people struggle to get to 300whp and if they do its barely over.


While the fp18g is still new and unproven and ive only seen one dyno, its damn impressive.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/282323-dyno-stock-4g63-fp-18g-284whp-280wtq-maft.html

Take in mind this is at 14.5psi, tuning with a very limited tool.

My bad for some reason I was thinking of the big t-28, but you seriously think only twice ever the 16g has made over 400whp? You want to throw money on that? Just because maybe it's only been posted twice on this site, doesn't mean it's only happened twice, ever.

DSM Performance Parts Turbo Eclipse Talon - Mitsubishi DSM EVO III 16G Turbo

 

[AOsipower]

Thanks for all the suggestions fellas. I will def look for an evo 8 pump then, Id like to keep it quiet. I remember reading that the walbros made some noise while researching which pump to get for my stealth TT (decided on denso supra pump back then).

Do you guys and gals know of a cheaper solution to the 16g install kit? I looked it up and it runs about $150. The guy I got the turbo from already included a 1g oil return line but it looks like I will need a new J-pipe and some gaskets also. If not I will just pony up and buy the kit, but if there is another option let me know.

Chris, thanks for the offer, if I ever need a more experienced helper I will def shoot you a pm!

Keep the suggestions coming...

 

[AOsipower]

Guys, I know arguments and scuffles are nothing new on forums, but geez, who cares what a turbo can "hypothetically" do. IMHO if you wanna prove something or disprove something put it on your car and put up or shut up. Bench racing about parts gets nobody anywhere.

Also this whole argument is about a turbo that I don't even have, I said at the beginning I have a small 16g not an evoIII 16g. So none of these arguments are even beneficial!

Now if we could get back on track and help a newbie out that would be awesome!

Thanks again for all the helpful posts, not trying to be a jerk here its just unprofessional.

Now lets here some good tips from everyone with alot more experience than me...

 

[BringBackDSM]

What questions do you have on your mind.

Oh and the reason im in this 16g argument is because, I dont want you to get mislead and upgrade to a evo3 16g if you ever upgrade and then expect 400hp.

 

[MountainDew]

I can sell you a j-pipe for cheap if you want it.



Ignorance is bliss son. Try going to dsmtimes.org and see how many guys are in the mid 11's to high ten range with the e3 16g and WITHOUT nos. You don't think guys clocking low 11's are putting 400 to the wheels?

Exactly.

"Oh and the reason im in this 16g argument is because, I dont want you to get mislead and upgrade to a evo3 16g if you ever upgrade and then expect 400hp."

The only person you are misleading is yourself. You don't just upgrade to that turbo and expect 400hp. It takes many supporting mods and lots of tuning and trail and error to reach that kind of power. It is like that with ANY turbo though.

16G is a good turbo. Would I recomend it for 300+ hp? Probably not. Yes it is easier to see bigger gains with a bigger turbo, but it is very well possible to hit it with a 16G.

Ever heard of race gas? Hmmmm

 

[AOsipower]

I can sell you a j-pipe for cheap if you want it.

I would def be interested. I already have the first gen oil return line. What else do I need? Specific part names would help (not just "you need two or 3 gaskets and some bolts) Which exact gaskets and stuff?

Thanks guys.

 

[BringBackDSM]

Also on a fast spooling turbo like that it does not take 400whp to run 11's.... People with 350whp and less can easily get into the 11's with the 16g.

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

Getting into the eleven's and clocking low 11's high 10's are two different things. I just gave you examples. There's a dyno slip on this forum with a guy that put over 450 to the wheels on a e3 16g, but with a close mind nothing will get through to you, so I don't give a shit. Believe what you want to believe.

 

[BringBackDSM]

I realize that someone made that. I also said I know of 2, him being one, and he has done it twice. I forget who the oter was. I said theres probably 2-4 that have ever dynoed over 400whp and im sticking buy that. Ya the evo3 is great, no denying it, but its going to be near impossible to get over 400whp for almost everyone. Im not closed minded just telling it how it is.

Im not talking down the turbo at all, but 400whp on it is, lets just say "for the rich with lots and lots of time"

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

Point being is you saying there are only 2-4 who have ever dynoed over 400whp on an e3 16g is a pretty bold and ignorant statement. Did you ever think that there are actually Dsm tuners outside dsmtuners?

 

[squeak104]

The gaskets that you will need will be the one for the J-Pipe, turbo to manifold, turbo to O2 dump, O2 dump to downpipe (unless you do exhaust at the same time it will come with the downpipe), and oil return to the turbo and oil pan. While you have the turbo off you should port it to the 7cm gasket and while you are at it remove the exhaust manifold and port it to the 7cm gasket. 16g turbos are rather known for boost creep so the turbo should be ported for it as well. Here is a link to all of your porting for the exhaust stuff. Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page

A dyno number may make you happy or having a nice driving car can make you happy. Its up to you what you would like to do. You can work hard to reach a number or you can take time to make it a fun car to drive and hp numbers don't matter so much.

 

[AOsipower]

The gaskets that you will need will be the one for the J-Pipe, turbo to manifold, turbo to O2 dump, O2 dump to downpipe (unless you do exhaust at the same time it will come with the downpipe), and oil return to the turbo and oil pan. While you have the turbo off you should port it to the 7cm gasket and while you are at it remove the exhaust manifold and port it to the 7cm gasket. 16g turbos are rather known for boost creep so the turbo should be ported for it as well. Here is a link to all of your porting for the exhaust stuff. Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page

A dyno number may make you happy or having a nice driving car can make you happy. Its up to you what you would like to do. You can work hard to reach a number or you can take time to make it a fun car to drive and hp numbers don't matter so much.

Thanks Squeak, this is exactly what I was looking for, you even answered my where do I look for porting info question before I asked. Yea the dyno numbers are not a big deal, there is a 99% chance I will never dyno it. I honestly want a quick, reliable, daily driver that will be extremely fun to drive. I just added the numbers so people had a ballpark of what I was looking for performance wise.

 

[squeak104]

The s16g will definitely get you that. I have the same on mine right now. Even on only 9 psi its fun to drive. It will get you around town well and give you some fun for spirited driving.