1997 gs spyder engine swap

[spyder33]

ok i have looked and looked i have found some simaler topics about it but none seem to be adressing the issue well enough i have a 1997 gs spyder with a 4g64 engine not a 420a i was wondering if it would be possible to put a 4g63 engine and a trani from a gs-t eclipse into my eclipse spyder. i wont to add more hp to my car put i have to have custome parts for my car because it is the gs spyder and i thought swaping engines would be a easier way. i cant buy a gs-t or a gsx because i am still making payments on the gs spyder...... please help

 

[jjgrizz73]

No, do yourself a favor and get a transmission. If you go JDM most of them come with AWD transmissions and you can just get a welded center diff. Works great.

 

[jjgrizz73]

Since you would like to know, even though there are many threads on this here is what you need to do this swap.

4g63 (7 or 6 bolt)
Transmission (recommend getting a clutch and pp also)
Note: If you get an AWD trans and use a welded center diff. buy GSX axles also
Wiring harness (if it doesnt come with one complete with ECU)
ECU (same as above)
Intercooler (either stock SMIC or FMIC) with the necess. piping
Downpipe

My jdm motor came with a external oil cooler housing on it, so plan on getting yourself an oil cooler w/ lines if it comes with that but if it comes with the sandwhich plate you wont need to do that.

Make sure if you order a engine that all the parts are in good shape, turbo, check compression, etc.
Everything else is self explanatory with the removal and insertion of the motor. If you plan on upgrading and running more power then more parts may be necessary but for keeping the stock motor that should be all you need.

 

[Laxinwarrior]

Yes i'm positive. The transmissions are practically identical, the only difference is a couple of the gearsets are different due to the turbo trans having different ratios. I know multiple people that have run the F5M31 with absolutely no issues whatsoever on 4g63t's. Clutch and flywheel are the exact same as the turbo FWD's as well if you didn't know. Also you can run the turbo ECU through your stock wiring harness with some very minor modifications to it.

 

[jjgrizz73]

On a stock setup maybeee but he said he plans on upgrading in the future. The gears in a nonturbo tranny are much weaker than the gears in a turbo tranny and you could tell by looking at them taking them apart. The stock turbo trannys arent good for much over 400whp anyways so I really wouldnt push a n/t trans. much over a stock 4g63t, its just not worth it. If you are going to do it, do it right the first time

Having the correct parts as well as a plan will allow you to move through this very quickly. And could make the difference between weeks/months and days.
I also highly doubt hes going to want to be swithcing pins around in the harness or ecu to get it to function correctly.

 

[spyder33]

thank you so much for helping me. this is the first time i will be performing an engine swap so is there anything i should keep my eye out for? anything i should be prepared to encounter while performing the swap?

 

[spyder33]

this is kind of a odd question to ask but i am having trouble finding a 4g63t engine 2 gen i was wondering if a 1gen 4g63t engine would work?

 

[jjgrizz73]

You just need to start utilizing the search feature. The 1g 4g63 is the 6 bolt and the 2g 4g63 is the 7 bolt. The 1g trans will NOT work in a 2g car so if you buy a 6 bolt, buy one without a transmission. If you buy a 7 bolt JDM engine with a 2g trans most likely an AWD tranny so you have to take the transmission apart, take out the center diff. and get it welded. I recommend Shep, he turned mine around in 1 day.

 

[delta448]

If I were you, I'd turbocharge the 64. The DOHC head is not a requirement, but there is more support for it when you start aiming for higher horsepower. Nobody here really knows what the 64's stock internals are capable of. I'll bet they're a little better than most people give them credit for. It might take some decent tuning, but I'm fairly certain it could handle more than enough boost to make 300whp. In a FWD, very much more than 300 and it starts to become a bit hairy on the street. Can you say "torque steer"?

The 63/64 rods are the exact same, the pistons are cast in both engines -but 64's higher compression of 9:1 versus 8.5:1 would require something other than your basic airflow modifying piggyback to tune with. The top ring land of the 64 piston is not as thick, but is as good as some of the other stock N/A engines coughHondacough that have been turbocharged successfully.

You're eventually going to need the turbo system parts, fuel system upgrade, ECU upgrade and turbo exhaust either way. Why not save yourself the headaches of extra cost and the labor of swapping to the smaller displacement block? If you decide you want serious horsepower in the future, you'd have to go forged internals with either engine anyways.

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would ever want to discard the 2.4 block. Even if you're wanting to spin it to high rpms, a built 2.1L destroker is way better than a built 2.0L in just about every aspect.

All in all, it really should depend on your goals first and the amount of cash you want to put into it second, but that isn't always possible. Determine what you're willing to spend and then take a look at what that could get you with either block. I'm biased, but my bet is you'll get further with the 2.4 for the same cost. Plus, it's nice to actually have low-end torque and be able to spool the same turbo 500 rpms quicker.

The 1g 4g63 is the 6 bolt and the 2g 4g63 is the 7 bolt.

You should be more specific. The last DSM with a stock 6 bolt was in 1992.

 

[jjgrizz73]

.

You should be more specific. The last DSM with a stock 6 bolt was in 1992.

Theres really no point in being specific when the question is fitment...but you are correct about the 2.4. But if money is a big issue, sometimes rebuilding the 2.4 can be just as expensive as buying a different motor. Either way, both have advantages. 64 blocks are still not utilized as much as they should be. I have a 64 block and crank along with the rest or the motor for sale for 400$ and only 1 or 2 people have questioned me about it so if no one takes it soon, this will be my new build instead of the 6 bolt 4g63.

 

[delta448]

You're right that the fitment is the most important thing. The 1G motor mounts are still different than his with either the 6 or 7 (but there are plenty of people out there who don't consider that a major issue and perform 6 bolt swaps just the same). I wasn't trying to nitpick, I just didn't want some new member to read your post and think all 1G's are 6 bolts.

But if money is a big issue, sometimes rebuilding the 2.4 can be just as expensive as buying a different motor.

Right, but if you're including the cost to rebuild the 2.4 it's not a fair comparison. Is the 2.0 going to have to be rebuilt as well? Will the 2.4 be able to handle the power he wants to make without rebuilding? Rebuilding either will cost about the same as long as you buy similar components.

The durabiility of the stock 63 is well documented, the durability of the 64 is almost completely unknown. They do have a lot in common, however the 63's pistons were designed with turbocharging in mind, the 64's weren't. Just keep the knock non-existent, keep the pistons from melting and the 64 block will work just fine without an overhaul.

 

[spyder33]

well money is a issue for me so i will research both options and see which one is cheaper but what is it i exactly need to look if i decide to build up the 64 and turbo charge it i mean will i have to look at buying new pistons because like you said we don't know what the internals of a 64 are capable of.

 

[delta448]

What is the budget amount you're looking to stay within for the engine? And what is your power/performance goal for the engine?

You could consider buying the pistons, but that negates most of my reasons for keeping the 64, excepting the performance benefits of increased displacement.

If you have to pull the block and have any machine work done, you don't really have to compromise on either block choice. I'd recommend building up another block so as to keep the car on the road while the engine is being built if you think you need to upgrade the internals and don't want to be satisfied with the stock 64 bottom end. But you'll be less likely to see it through to completed if you do that.

Remember that the 9:1 CR and larger displacement will not require as much boost to reach the same power level as a 63. Especially true if you swap to a DOHC head with a set of stroker cams and use DSMLink. Pushing 12-15psi on a 2.4 with good tuning just might be enough airflow to net you about 300whp, but that's really just some blind speculatation. If you keep it stock 64, I advise that you be sure that you have all the tuning equipment necessary to get an uncompromised tune, that would be the key to success with it.

Maybe Laxinwarrior could give us better insight on tuning this setup and boost level vs power output with a stock 64 SOHC. I believe he said somewhere that he made the 222/250 (measured at the wheels) below his name on just 10psi. The 2.0 makes less than that measured at the crank on more boost; about 12-14psi from the factory.

 

[spyder33]

my goal is to have a quick turbo car around 300 400 hp and i dont have the money on hand im going to have to work and spend each pay check on the parts i was not hoping to spend of 2500 but if i have to then i guess i have to

 

[jjgrizz73]

If you want around the 400hp region 2500$ isnt going to get you there unless you find very good deals on some good parts.

Delta: I'd like to speak to you a little more about building a 2.4 I see you were looking into it awhile ago on a different thread. I'm alittle lost with which pistons, rods, etc to use and the problems with the oil squirters and pressure. Thanks man

 

[delta448]

If you want around the 400hp region 2500$ isnt going to get you there unless you find very good deals on some good parts.

Thrifty shopping for sure. A holset, some used parts and a little backyard engineering in store for 400whp or more on that budget.

Delta: I'd like to speak to you a little more about building a 2.4 I see you were looking into it awhile ago on a different thread. I'm alittle lost with which pistons, rods, etc to use and the problems with the oil squirters and pressure. Thanks man

Well, I think this is probably as good a thread as any to discuss a 2.4... ?
OP, we'll take it elsewhere if you say so, I don't want to hijack your thread, maybe you're leaning towards a 2.4... -and will allow?

Anyways, here's a general rundown on what I think I know:

I'd recommend using custom 156mm rods with a stroker style piston in the correct larger bore size, whatever brand is your preference. Stock rods are only 150mm, stroker pistons are 6mm shorter, IMHO longer rod engine designs are superior.

Oil squirters can be installed fairly easily in a 64 block. Both the 63 and 64 blocks have the same oil passage that the squirters draw from, the 64 just needs to be accurately drilled 4 times to accept the squirters. Oil pressure could be a little high on a 2.4 if it's without balance shafts and without piston squirters. Otherwise it's pretty much the same system as the 63. Port the relief valve.

The blocks actually start as the same casting, it's basically just that the 64 has a 6mm taller deck height, gets the bores punched out an extra 1.5mm, has a more robust one-piece main girdle and doesn't get squirters. Almost everything else swaps or is compatible between blocks.

 

[jjgrizz73]

156mm rods are probably harder to get ahold of (or more expensive) I'm sure correct? I'm looking to run about 500-550hp with it, nothing really over that. Now I can do a bs elim. kit on it and leave out the squirters for the pistons and just have the block be machined (bore, etc.) where are the other squirters that would have to be drilled out, or is that referring to the piston squirters? Unfortunately I havent had any experience with DSM blocks apart. Right now since buying a built block is just as expensive and building my own would be more fun I'm going to rip the SOHC head off and start working on my 64 in the coming months so I can throw the HX35 on I picked up.

 

[delta448]

156mm rods are probably harder to get ahold of (or more expensive) I'm sure correct? I'm looking to run about 500-550hp with it, nothing really over that.

Yes they will likely cost a bit more. SBR and Magnus both usually have custom 156mm rods in stock. You could always use standard 150mm rods and standard height pistons to save a little bit of cash, but you should still go with something forged for 500+hp levels.

Now I can do a bs elim. kit on it and leave out the squirters for the pistons and just have the block be machined (bore, etc.) where are the other squirters that would have to be drilled out, or is that referring to the piston squirters?

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. Squirters = Piston Oil Squirters, no other part "squirts" oil as it's primary function. The squirters are not factory installed on 64 blocks. They are also not required if you have forged internals that can handle the extra load. When you start pushing upwards of say 350-400whp, you will probably want to have the extra insurance of the squirters if you're still using a cast piston (like the stock ones). Cast pieces don't stand up to heat as well as forged.

The 4G64 blocks have the same oil passage that is used for the tap-in point for the 1G 63 oil squirters (which are also a much better design than 2G 63 squirters). Notice below the areas pointed out in red on the 2003 4G64 block and then the same areas with squirter holes present on the 1993 4G63 block. Also you can clearly see the oil passage circled in blue that runs through each squirter hole.

I stole the pic of the 1993 block from Magnus's crankwalk page, available here.

 

[jjgrizz73]

Ohh ok Thanks alot for the help, I am def. going to go with forged internals and getting a build that can support more power than what I'm running. I'm never comfortable running the block to its max on a daily driver. This way if I ever choose to upgrade further its possible. Right now my stock block 7 bolt is close to its breaking point so I want to be ready with a plan and parts just in case. So I can use rods made for a 7 bolt 4g63 on a 7 bolt 64 correct? And what about the pistons, am I looking for 4g64 pistons with the correct bore?
Thanks alot for your help, I really sound like a noob haha.

 

[delta448]

So I can use rods made for a 7 bolt 4g63 on a 7 bolt 64 correct?

Correct. They use identical rods in stock form. Just make sure the aftermarket rod's wrist pin design is compatible with the pistons you choose. Fixed pressed pin vs full floating pin, and correct pin diameter; 7 bolt rods use 22mm diameter pins, ones designed for 6 bolts use 21mm.

And what about the pistons, am I looking for 4g64 pistons with the correct bore?

You should use pistons designed specifically for a 64 hybrid to get the advertised CR when using stock length 150mm rods. I know Wiseco makes 64 hybrid specific pistons, but I'm not sure of the availability of any other off-the-shelf options. If Wiseco's don't suit your fancy, most piston makers can come up with a custom design if you give them a few details about the engine you're building and they usually only increase cost a small percentage for it.

 

[jjgrizz73]

Wiseco's CR is normally ~9:1, I found some JE's with 8.5:1. How do the 64's handle higher compression with higher boost. Since I'm probably going to be running a good amount of psi, would using the 8.5 be beneficial?

 

[delta448]

It'd be easier to tune. The timing window gets smaller with higher compression. Personally, I'd look for professional dyno tuning on a high compression boosted engine unless you're very confident in your tuning abilities, however 9:1 isn't super high either.

With higher compression you won't need as much timing advance for the same boost level. The cylinder pressures climb more quickly under boost with higher compression, and of course higher final compressed charge pressures will burn much quicker. High octane fuel or meth/water injection may be needed in order to slow the burn down enough to prevent knock with higher compression. There is a point where this is true for any engine configuration though, the fuel octane pretty much always limits the maximum boost level.

Remember though, that when using higher compression you won't need as much boost to reach the same power level.

 

[jjgrizz73]

Understood, sounds good to me thanks alot for the excellent/quick advice.

 

[spyder33]

..??? uhh i jus got on to check the thread and i was like huh but anyway that helped me understand what i have to do with my 64 block