1600cc, needs over desire

[tstkl]

so I jumped on the do it once do it right bandwagon a while back, and have finally come to the point where after dsmlink, I will be getting larger injectors. Now to be completely honest with you, a set of 650's would be more than enough for me right now, but after I finish all my exhaust and fuel mods(+dsmlink), Im planning on stepping up to a 60-1 or gt35r. As far as injector sizing is concerned, I have been looking at the 950+ range. The 1600's are significantly cheaper on fuel injector clinic's site. I have been asking local tuning shops about me using 1600, and so far everyone has said that low end drivability becomes a huge issue with these injectors.

whos running these injectors, what fuel management are you using, and do you have any low end drivability problems?

anyone running a two stage yet? where is your second row of injectors mounted?

 

[loweperf]

It will be pretty much undriveable. It will probably spit fuel out the exhaust idling. I currently am running 26# primary and 160# secondaries. The 160 are too big but needed with the small primaries I have. Even with a Electromotive TEC3 I still am unable to get rid of a small burble when the secondaries come on light load.

The secondary injectors are mounted underneath on a Magnus manifold.

 

[laggin3]

Get a set of 1150s. If you are asking about a mod like this, then you dont need it.

 

[Mark90gst]

hey go for the 1600, it will be awsome to have all the fuel you will ever need, or go with staged fuel injection, I going between these two options right now! it is going to be bad @ss.
but make sure you can control those puppies propley, hope you have something like aem ems!
..like i do

 

[brute]

Or just some FIC 1000cc's... Many people have run 600hp + and mid 10 sec ET's with 1000's... Depends on what your overall goal is.

 

[Lunch_Box]

If you go with 1600cc injectors just get an injector driver box and it will improve you idle and low RPM range.

 

[dsm-onster]

If you are asking about a mod like this, then you dont need it.

This makes absolutely no sense. He's not wondering about whether or not these injectors are enough. He's wondering if the drivability issues are bad enough to merit smaller injectors, since he has dsmlink and can actually tune for injectors this large. 1600cc injectors are significantly smaller than 1200cc injectors. Further, chances are he'll never need another injector upgrade if he goes w/ 1600cc injectors. I'm having to make the same decision here.

tstkl, go with Lunch_Box's suggestion. I am. Go in DSMLink and read the thread discussing the FIC 1600cc injectors specifically... The 1600cc injectors have 4-6 ohm impedance. This is 2 times more than normal peak & hold injectors. This is likely the root cause of all the problems w/ drivability everyone has experienced w/ these. The higher impedance is not seen by the ecu. And pulse width calculations need to be altered if a different total resistance is used in the circuit. Fortunately we have resistor packs and can swap it out for a set of lower impedance resistors to counter the higher impedance of the FIC 1600s . . .

 

[Slippi84]

Unless you have a upgraded fuel system as in 6an or 8an lines and a very big or dual fuel pump setup it won't matter because you won't have enough fuel pressure to support that kind of hp that you would need 1600cc's injectors for anyway. I would get some 950-1200cc injectors and pic up FFWD's fuel kit and you will have enough fuel for anything you wil ever run.

 

[tstkl]

Get a set of 1150s. If you are asking about a mod like this, then you dont need it.

I know, as I said in the original post, that I do not need 1600's right now. it is a matter of not having to spend the money twice, so getting 1600's now, although not neccisary, is more cost effective.

Unless you have a upgraded fuel system as in 6an or 8an lines and a very big or dual fuel pump setup it won't matter because you won't have enough fuel pressure to support that kind of hp that you would need 1600cc's injectors for anyway. I would get some 950-1200cc injectors and pic up FFWD's fuel kit and you will have enough fuel for anything you wil ever run.

I plan on getting a 8 an- set up with either twin 255's or twin 290's (supra pump)

I really just want a fuel system that I will never have to worry about going lean on. as for my final goals with the car, it seems that with every mod I do, I just want to mod it more, so Ill probably end up taking this car as far as my wallet can go. It sounds like with dsmlink and a change in resistor pack (btw, who makes a lower resistance pack?) 1600's will do fine. It would be more interesting to have like 750's and 950's, but I think tuning two rows of injectors would probably be harder, and a lot more expensive. when it comes down to it, Im trying to not waste any money. Im not trying to be cheap, Im just looking for the most cost effective way to get the job done. That doesn't mean Im looking for some half ass way to do the job, Im looking for a clean way to get it done right, the first time.

 

[dsm-onster]

Unless you have a upgraded fuel system as in 6an or 8an lines and a very big or dual fuel pump setup it won't matter because you won't have enough fuel pressure to support that kind of hp that you would need 1600cc's injectors for anyway. I would get some 950-1200cc injectors and pic up FFWD's fuel kit and you will have enough fuel for anything you wil ever run.

950-1200cc injectors are $50 more.

As well, getting the 1600cc injectors means that he will not need to upgrade fuel injectors when he upgrades the rest of his fuel system, if he advances to a level where the 1600cc injectors are needed. In the mean time, he has enough injector to get the job done. 300 bones a pop gets expensive after a couple of upgrades. And pointless, if DSMLink can control 1600cc injectors just fine (after modifying the resistance).

It's too bad turbos can't be purchased like injectors. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get a HUGE turbocharger, have it perform like an EVO3 16G; then when we upgrade fuel, cooling, etc. have it perform like a GT40R.

 

[Slippi84]

950-1200cc injectors are $50 more.

As well, getting the 1600cc injectors means that he will not need to upgrade fuel injectors when he upgrades the rest of his fuel system, if he advances to a level where the 1600cc injectors are needed. In the mean time, he has enough injector to get the job done. 300 bones a pop gets expensive after a couple of upgrades. And pointless, if DSMLink can control 1600cc injectors just fine (after modifying the resistance).

It's too bad turbos can't be purchased like injectors. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get a HUGE turbocharger, have it perform like an EVO3 16G; then when we upgrade fuel, cooling, etc. have it perform like a GT40R.

I hear you man. If he has dsmlink and uses it to tune or a chip set for the 1600cc injectors than yeah sure we all know go as big as your pocket can afford. I won't doubt that the 1600cc injectors are cheaper either but what turbo does he plan on running that will need 1600cc injectors. I have a GT14(65lbs/min) running FIC 950's and that's really more than enough as I have seen people run a turbo like mine with 750's of course that is pushin it. My point is if his ultimate goal is something like a gt42 than ok grab up them 1600cc injectors but if you don't plan on running anything bigger than like a gt35R or something than it just seems like your adding another thing to have to worry about. I would spend 50 more bucs to have peace of mind about something like fuel delivery.

 

[napkinthief]

I also like to do things once, but for something like injectors 1600 is just a little too big, get a set of 1000s and you should be fine for a LONG time.

 

[dsm-onster]

950s at 80% idc, stock fuel pressure, and tuned to 11.0:1 A/F ratio flows enough for 580 crank horspower. Add proper drivetrain losses to come to your final horsepower level. A turbo that can flow 65 lbs/min can flow enough for 680 crank horsepower. Not quite more than enough.

If it will idle like stock w/ a little modification, then what's to worry about?

What's "too big" about an injector that operates like stock when proper impedance values are established?

The added benefit is that they are less expensive.

There's no flaming on my part here. Just a little confusion. . .

 

[Slippi84]

950s at 80% idc, stock fuel pressure, and tuned to 11.0:1 A/F ratio flows enough for 580 crank horspower. Add proper drivetrain losses to come to your final horsepower level. A turbo that can flow 65 lbs/min can flow enough for 680 crank horsepower. Not quite more than enough.

If it will idle like stock w/ a little modification, then what's to worry about?

What's "too big" about an injector that operates like stock when proper impedance values are established?

The added benefit is that they are less expensive.

There's no flaming on my part here. Just a little confusion. . .

Dsm-onster I usualy see eye to eye with you in most of these threads but I have got to go against you on this one. Plenty of people have proved that your injector calculations are well off or atleast not realistic. Jason's TSI runs 720's with his gt35R and has run a 9.6 1/4. Not to mention Evil eagle made 692whp with PTE 1000cc injectors. Those were just some of the ones I could think of off the top of my head. If you go down the 1/4 mile list you will see people running 10's and the people that are makin over 550whp are not running crazy 1600cc injectors. If this guy comes on here saying he wants to run 9's and that's why he's buying 1600cc injectors just because I said gus running 10's aren't doing it I'm sorry but he's not ready for that anyway. Anyone that is knowledgable and has a setup tuned to run 9's would have a lot more to worry about that 50 bucs and injector size.


Edit: by the way evil eagle uses a 3575 which is actually a 75lb/min turbo not a 65lb/min turbo and has 50 more cc's then the 950's we were talkin about running for a turbo that is ruffly gonna make 100hp less. More reason that 950's are plenty.

 

[dsm-onster]

Oh, these are not my calculations. This is from Kyle Tarry, and Alex Yonetani of Tak Motorsports:

DSM_Tuning_Sheet_v2.1.xls

No one's is disputing the neccesity of 1600c injectors for one to reach the 9s. I really do agree that no one should be wondering if they need a certain injector size when attempting a single digit ET.

Tstkl is not wondering if he needs this injector size. He's wondering if they will be drivable. He plans on 'taking this car as far as his wallet can go'. I don't know whats in his wallet. But I'm sure he'll not find many turbos that will max out 1600cc injectors. So if they are drivable and less expensive, why not? What if he just does get a turbo that can max out 1000cc per cylinder of fuel flow? Then this purchase would be a waste. He could have gotten injectors over 50% larger, spent less for them, and maintained drivability. Not arguing here. Just paying attention to the details. 50 bones here and there really add up over the timeline. So is meeting your goal with certain components then deciding to go further. 1600cc injectors flow enough fuel for around 980 hp @ 80% IDC. He'll never need an upgrade again when he might with smaller choices. Buy right, buy once.

 

[tstkl]

either way, the 1600's are cheaper, so its kinda pointless to buy anything smaller in my mind. so what if 1000's would also be all that I ever need, should I pay more for less injector then?

 

[loweperf]

I still think he should consider the driveability here. Imagine trying to put out a match with a fire hose-it will do it but not with any sort of control. Anybody that has tried to tune these monsters know that the subtle touches needed for driveability is not there,a 1% change is big compared to a 1% change to a smaller injector.
Just my .02

 

[Reese92tsi]

According to the calculator on stealth316.com a set of FIC 950's or PTE 1000's should be enough injector for 90% of us. On pump gas you would have enough fuel for about 65lb/min and on race gas you'd have enough injector for about 800 horsepower, this is assuming a very rich 10:1 A/F on pump and 12.5:1 on race at 43 psi base pressure at 80% idc. You could also push em further by increasing base fuel pressure to about 50psi (wouldn't make a big difference) and assuming an ABSOLUTE max idc of 90% (would make a big difference).

 

[92awddsm]

I wouldnt go over 1200cc injectors. I dont care what kind of fuel control you have or how precise you can tune them, part throttle drivability is going to be poor. The orfices in a 1600cc is so large that at low flow, the fuel will not atomize properly. All you will get out of the injector below wot is droplets of raw fuel, not a fine spray pattern which has a lot to do with driveability.

 

[Slippi84]

That's where the diffrence is. That 80% dutty cycle = 580crank is only for pump gas. Which is useless because this guy will will start running a big turbo that big and need to run big psi and pump gas won't cut it w/o some kind of inujection. So I think with that established race gas + 950's(which by the way you can get for cheaper than 1600's if you check the classifieds or ebay) = More fun than you will ever need.

 

[tstkl]

Im also somewhat tempted to do this as a test of some sorts. everyone here is arguing for/against it, but how many of you people have actually used them? If I used them, I could let people know, kinda like that little cartoon on animaniacs. and now it is time for another good idea, bad idea.

good idea: don't vent

bad idea: vent



anyways, I've been talking to some people and currently can not deside between dsmlink and aem ems, since I have a wideband o2 sensor and that whole wideband feeding into the aem in real time sounds so helpful. Anyone know if tuning these large of injectors would be easier on aem over dsmlink? just another reason to sway me one way or the other.

 

[Slippi84]

Im also somewhat tempted to do this as a test of some sorts. everyone here is arguing for/against it, but how many of you people have actually used them? If I used them, I could let people know, kinda like that little cartoon on animaniacs. and now it is time for another good idea, bad idea.

good idea: don't vent

bad idea: vent



anyways, I've been talking to some people and currently can not deside between dsmlink and aem ems, since I have a wideband o2 sensor and that whole wideband feeding into the aem in real time sounds so helpful. Anyone know if tuning these large of injectors would be easier on aem over dsmlink? just another reason to sway me one way or the other.

Don't get debating mixed up with arguing. I know DSM-onster and these other guys are sharp as tacks as they know I'm no slouch so we have a certain respect for each other and our ideas and thoughts. This is just us disagreeing on a certain way of setting up a car as they're are infinate amounts of possibilities to setting up a car. Just a bunch of guys contributing to the site...by the way I run FIC 950's now

 

[loweperf]

I can tell you from my experience that 1600cc are hard to tune. As 92awddsm said anything under WOT acc is not good. I run 26# primaries to get good driveability but I need 110lb/hr to feed the motor at full boost. This leaves me with large secondary injectors. The secondaries come in just when the motor starts to build boost, which works good at WOT. At part throttle when the secondaries come in I get a studder. When tuning this on the dyno a 1% change (the smallest change I'm able to make)still does not eliminate the problem. I had to increase primary IDC and delay secondary injectors to a higher RPM. So far I've got the fuel curve set up to about 6500RPM and have'nt done any spark timing yet. I'm just finishing installing a new dyno in the shop so maybe I'll get back to tuning my own car soon!(it's been almost a year) At which time I may increase primary injector size so I can decrease secondaries.

 

[Slippi84]

I can tell you from my experience that 1600cc are hard to tune. As 92awddsm said anything under WOT acc is not good. I run 26# primaries to get good driveability but I need 110lb/hr to feed the motor at full boost. This leaves me with large secondary injectors. The secondaries come in just when the motor starts to build boost, which works good at WOT. At part throttle when the secondaries come in I get a studder. When tuning this on the dyno a 1% change (the smallest change I'm able to make)still does not eliminate the problem. I had to increase primary IDC and delay secondary injectors to a higher RPM. So far I've got the fuel curve set up to about 6500RPM and have'nt done any spark timing yet. I'm just finishing installing a new dyno in the shop so maybe I'll get back to tuning my own car soon!(it's been almost a year) At which time I may increase primary injector size so I can decrease secondaries.

This guy knows his stuff and sounds like he has a complicated but successful setup but I personaly dsy #### THAT!! Why go threw all that for piece of mind when 950's will do. Not saying will do for this guy but will do for the rest of us.

 

[tstkl]

This guy knows his stuff and sounds like he has a complicated but successful setup but I personaly dsy #### THAT!! Why go threw all that for piece of mind when 950's will do. Not saying will do for this guy but will do for the rest of us.

ok, maybe you guys are right... I think Ill go with some 950's or 1000's. maybe some 1200's if I knew who sold them/ how much they are. I know fic's 1150's are EXPENSIVE