What HeadGasket to run....

[xxShaneOmac]

Im pretty sure the previous owner just replaced the Timing belt was done 15k ago.

But Im fully moded to goto 20-24 psi and Im not going above 17 w/o doing the ARP head stud and HG step.

So 7bolt ARP headstuds are a Check but the HG is still up in the air.

Cometic
MLS
Copper

I dont know what HG to choose.
Why this and why not that.

Also.
The head will come off, but the Block is staying in the car.
How in the hell will I mill the block, it HAS to be milled and flat as a pancake right?

I really need.

1. What HG and why
2. Mill the head and what todo with the block?!

Thanks!

 

[Freerevving]

yes... I wouldn't use composite, if you're going to do it, do it right ... the Mitsu MLS is a better headgasket... unless you aren't very good with headgaskets, in that case go with composite

Why all the bad publilcity for the Mitsu MLS? I don't care if the car had NO BOOST I'd still use it...

 

[FORMONTOYA]

Why all the bad publilcity for the Mitsu MLS? I don't care if the car had NO BOOST I'd still use it...

Of course this is all just my opinion....


Because most people that modify cars are in the 18-25 year range and have little to no money or experience to do things correctly. In reality they should be spending their money on more important thing in life (but that's another argument best left alone) than to spend crazy amounts of money on a car that they plan on driving every day without anything else to drive once the car takes a dump. Then you find that things get even more half-a$$ed because the car has to be drivable on Monday to get to work.

With the criteria given, and the presumed lack of experience or money, a composite is less expensive and far more forgiving to mistakes that are likely to happen during the first couple of times tackling this type of project.

You will find that the best advice given is not "what would you do, rather what can the person asking accomplish or need given certain criteria".

 

[xxShaneOmac]

I agree,

Why not pull the whole entire engine. Machine both head and block and MLS it.
Well Lets just go with oring, thats even better. And why we are here I can pull my crank
and get it balanced. And I can hone port pollish my head blueprint hot tank, hell lets forge the
internals, and sense we have done all that I should cage the car for saftey...

Ok Yes I know there are the BEST way to do things.
But when Im looking for what will hold 350 hp at 22 PSI. I dont need a cage and a forged engine
or it seems like even an MLS.

So thanks, two wisemen suggest composite, that is what is going in my car with ARPs.

I do have money,
I do have a DD
This car is a WEW
But I am not looking to spend 50k on my car.
I want to be happy with paying my bills and having fun camping and doing stuff while saving
And the extra money will put my car in a place I am happy with. Mid 12 timeslip with 350 hp.

Goals may change in the future.

 

[mattdev]

Of course this is all just my opinion....


Because most people that modify cars are in the 18-25 year range and have little to no money or experience to do things correctly. In reality they should be spending their money on more important thing in life (but that's another argument best left alone) than to spend crazy amounts of money on a car that they plan on driving every day without anything else to drive once the car takes a dump. Then you find that things get even more half-a$$ed because the car has to be drivable on Monday to get to work.

With the criteria given, and the presumed lack of experience or money, a composite is less expensive and far more forgiving to mistakes that are likely to happen during the first couple of times tackling this type of project.

You will find that the best advice given is not "what would you do, rather what can the person asking accomplish or need given certain criteria".

I second that; that's me!! Just started to give myself more time for jobs (as I've come to realized they NEVER end up as easy as they should)

I second the OEM gasket, a friend of mine runs a 50-trim on 25psi on ARP Studs and OEM Head gasket.

However I plan on an MLS gasket, when the time comes. It all depends on how strapped for cash you are. Composite will get the job done, and do it well. MLS and machining will be insurance...

 

[Freerevving]

hmmm, well, to each his own

350hp and possible change in plans... ... still think the MLS headgasket is a good idea especially when you can get a Mitsu remake at $60 shipped... plus you will definitely have to machine everything after using a second composite HG... they leave deep imprints in the engine

You originally wanted to know what headgasket and why.. well, most people with experience using metal headgaskets would probably recommend a 4 layer HG. If it all comes down to what is economical and easy... the bare minimum for your boost... then YES.. go with the composite. That's all you need with ARP's. I also feel you could go without the ARP's and with the Mitsu MLS to achieve the same goal

 

[FORMONTOYA]

One thing to remember/know about a head gasket...

Most fail because the engine gets overheated and the water pushes out the HG material getting mixed into the oil passages or just blown out the side, not exterme cylinder pressure blowing out the metal ring reinforced cylinder wall portion.

 

[xxShaneOmac]

What kinda temps are we talking here?

DSMLink dosnt tell me im overheating.
It just tells me temps

 

[gvr41389]

i got a soft stone for rubbing the metal on the rotor where the thrust bearings ride on a hydro turbine. that worked great on my block.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

From the DSMLink site:

Enter ECU Learn Mode :: 170F (77C)
Coolant Fan ON :: 200F (93C)
Pull 1 degree timing :: 206F (97C)
Pull 2 degree timing :: 224F (107C)
Enter Open Loop Mode :: 228F (109C)
Default Coolant CEL :: 235F (113C)
A/C Override :: 240F (115C)

My car would be shut off before I ever had 2 degrees pulled from coolant temps. Above 240 and you can most surely plan on a HG job. Of course it helps to have a real gauge and not the 3 position OEM one.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

hmmm, well, to each his own

350hp and possible change in plans... ... still think the MLS headgasket is a good idea especially when you can get a Mitsu remake at $60 shipped... plus you will definitely have to machine everything after using a second composite HG... they leave deep imprints in the engine

You originally wanted to know what headgasket and why.. well, most people with experience using metal headgaskets would probably recommend a 4 layer HG. If it all comes down to what is economical and easy... the bare minimum for your boost... then YES.. go with the composite. That's all you need with ARP's. I also feel you could go without the ARP's and with the Mitsu MLS to achieve the same goal

yes yes, I do agree completely about your entire take in this thread. Again, it's all about personal preference, goal, ability, etc. I'm glad you're at least keeping it civil for your side of the story with a 4 layer MLS. For a motor that is seeing a consistent 30+psi, I would also recommend an MLS over a composite, but if you are at that level of boost/power than pulling the engine for machine work shouldn't even be an option.

 

[xxShaneOmac]

Right now I have FP BigT28

This cannot make over 350 hp as far as I know.

When I up my trubo.
3052 3065 and start making 450 500 hp. I need to pull the moter and forge her.
Then a MLS is a big strong CHECK

But from what I have read and even you agree on it.
25 psi composite and ARP is the best for where I am at.

At least thats what I got out of it.

 

[No_Skillz]

ARP headstuds. Composite headgasket.
30psi Reliable (ask me how I know).

 

[FORMONTOYA]

Good point Tom. I sometimes forget that things can veer off in a bad direction when different opinions are stated.

So yes, thanks for keeping it civil Freerevving!

 

[gsxAWDdsm692]

I found this thread extremely useful for my future endeavors.

 

[Freerevving]

hey thanks to both of you

I like that you pointed out that heat, and spikes in heat, are the common reasons headgaskets fail... A single-layer gasket doesn't allow the head to shift without breaking the seal. Even though it holds for while, it can lose its grip with high mileage.

 

[xxShaneOmac]

hey thanks to both of you

I especially like how you pointed out that heat, and spikes in heat, are the common reasons headgaskets fail... A single-layer gasket doesn't allow the head to shift without breaking the seal. Even though it holds for while, it can lose its grip with high mileage.

Good point.
So

1. If you can pull your block or your pushing 30+ psi make sure you mill both surfaces and MLS

2. If your not removing your block and cant mill it or its not PERFECT donot use MLS cause they fail when not installed perfect.

3. Use Composite for 350 ish HP when you cant use MLS

4. MLS > Composite when installed correctly

5. Watch your heat!

 

[Freerevving]

Yeah you have it pretty summed up there, I wouldn't say your surfaces need to be perfect when using an OEM MLS HG (damn that's a lot of acronyms) although it does help. As mentioned before, machining is recommended. The surfaces definitely need to be true and smooth... I've seen a few heads with slight warpage seal just fine after being cleaned (lightly sanded, or gasket remover) and torqued down, using a MLS.

One thing I believe in 100% is using copper spray gasket on everything... even exhaust gaskets... It takes away a lot of my worry about scratches, flaws and low spots

I very much like that this thread has slightly opposing views, but it's still positive and informative

 

[OneLove]

Hey guys, I am sorry for the thread revival, but I have one question to add onto this thread. After reading everything i have decided that I would feel most comfortable using a mitsu composite/organic headgaket. I will be making in the area of 400-420whp. The dsmwisemen all convinced me to run the composite headgasket. Will it be safe at 400whp with arps though?

This is my first time pulling the head on my car.

Thanks, and this thread has been super helpful so far!

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Yes, it will be safe, but there are NO SUCH THING as a guarantee. If there was, we wouldnt have such things in life as second place finishes. It should work for what you are doing, but it all depends on how hard you use the motor, it the motor detonates a shitton, how much boost, how well you torque it down, how flat the surface is, if you use copper spray or not. But, if you want a answer, yes it is.

James

 

[OneLove]

Thanks James. I appreciate it.

 

[thewombis]

If you don't plan on decking the head or block, just go with the arps, and a felt, or stock head gasket.. as long as you follow the torque specs and do everything correctly, you should be good to go. Personally i would rather blow a head gasket then cause damage somewhere else, or have to deal with leaks all the time.

***Don't forget STM Ricer ran on stock block, stock head gasket! That had to be pus0hing 550hp?

 

[live4my4g63]

i would use a MLS i have it and its great, remember to copper spray it though

 

[GsXdSmKingGsX]

Don't sand the block.

OEM Head Gaskets are great. Thats what I am using.