water injection pushes stock engine farther

[91-gsx]

i have been reading about built engines that people have on this site. and one of the main reasons for building an engine is that it can take more heat without melting pistons, or other parts. on pump gas the best way to make more power is to raise boost and to lower timing. but a stock engine cannot take too low of timing because it will heat up too much and you might end up melting parts. now the idea i had was to use water injection along with lower timing and lot of boost to make a lot of power on the stock internals without melting them. most people like water injection because it allows you to run more timing and a bit more boost, but boost is what makes more power. so i was thinking of running low timing and high boost but use the water injection to cool the cylinders wich should allow me to get away with the increased cylinder temps from low timing. alcohol works well to cool everything in general, but i do not have that readily available all the time. plus water cools the head and cylinders a lot better, but alcohol can get your intake temps below ambient.
this is just an idea, tell me what you think. it might also help those of you with an injection system now.
later

 

[staticbrainwash]

Water alch is more readily available than you think. Just run Different temp grades of washer fluid.

You'll get different alch/water mixes, and it's like 2 bucks a gallon.

 

[hairybeanbag]

I know a few people running water injection, most of them run windshield washer fluid because it has a small amount of alcohal in it to keep from freezing in cold temps. I just by race gas for $5.50 per gallon, but to each his own Water/alcohal injection keep the intake temps cooler for less chance of detionation. I have seen a motor broken down after useing water injection, looks brand new! Pistions and valves where shiny like they just came out of the box.WTF

 

[donmagicjuan]

You're correct that running low timing will result in higher cylinder temps, but I don't think running alcohol or water injection to facilitate running extremely low timing would give you the results you're anticipating. The ideal amount of timing to run is a function of crankshaft speed and flame front speed, with the goal being to reach a peak cylinder pressure at about 14 degrees ATDC. When you cram more air and fuel into the cylinder (more boost), or do anything to effectively raise the compression ratio, you will get a faster burning flame front. This is where the idea comes from that more powerful engines require less timing advance. However, when tuning an engine for maximum power, most people will increase timing until no further power gains are observed, provided detonation levels are safe. This is as true for a stock engine as it is for a built one. The only difference is the value of timing advance at which peak power occurs.

When tuning my car with water/meth injection, I was able to gain power up to about 2 degrees more advanced than the stock map called for, peaking at about 21 degrees. Running less than that will always result in a power loss for me.

One other thing to add is that I would love to run more boost at the cost of some timing, but this is more often a limitation of the turbo and not one's desire to keep his stock internals alive. Usually people run water/meth injection to push a turbo to its limits, because it's a cheaper alternative to running race gas 24/7.

 

[91-gsx]

i am not looking to run alcohol right now because you have to run more of it, and it does not cool the head and pistons the same way, but it does cool the air a lot more though. what i am talking about is not used at all on this site. i am talking about running the engine a lot hotter through crazy high boost and lower timing along with a leaner mixture, you have to admit these all do make for an extreme situation with the stock internals. but when you run the water injection, it will get you back to normal temps but still make a ton of torque and horsepower through boost.
later

 

[donmagicjuan]

First, you would need a turbo that is capable of running "crazy high boost." The water injection would do a lot to cool the combustion chamber under these circumstances, but you have to remember that upgraded internals are not only needed to handle the extra heat from high horsepower applications, but also because they are much stronger. Higher cylinder pressures necessary to achieve the power you're talking about place greater stresses on the rotating assembly, which at some point will cause weaker stock internals to fail. If this were untrue, then everyone at the track would be running pump gas and water injection with stock internals, because forged internals and race gas would just be a waste of money.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

I know a few people running water injection, most of them run windshield washer fluid because it has a small amount of alcohal in it to keep from freezing in cold temps. I just by race gas for $5.50 per gallon, but to each his own Water/alcohal injection keep the intake temps cooler for less chance of detionation. I have seen a motor broken down after useing water injection, looks brand new! Pistions and valves where shiny like they just came out of the box.WTF

The meth is actually used to raise octane as well. I believe meth by it self has an octane rating of 120. So by running meth/water injection, you can have a race gas tune in a daily driver. plus, winter mix windshield washer fluid (about 49% water, 49%meth, 2% dies and other crap) is cheaper then 93 gas right now. So you just keep using your overpriced race gas....


Also, I do not think running low timing is the answer.... wouldn't that give you horrible off boost response? Of course, spool times would be lowered

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Also, I do not think running low timing is the answer.... wouldn't that give you horrible off boost response? Of course, spool times would be lowered

 

[donmagicjuan]

Of course, spool times would be lowered

Actually, Jake, there was a recent thread that brought this up, and the consensus was that lower timing will actually improve spoolup. The hotter exhaust temps will provide a better driving head for the turbine, but the reduced torque output of the motor during spoolup ends up making it a less than desirable choice.

EDIT: I just realized that you said spool times would be lowered, which basically is the same thing I just said. My mistake.

 

[91-gsx]

First, you would need a turbo that is capable of running "crazy high boost." The water injection would do a lot to cool the combustion chamber under these circumstances, but you have to remember that upgraded internals are not only needed to handle the extra heat from high horsepower applications, but also because they are much stronger. Higher cylinder pressures necessary to achieve the power you're talking about place greater stresses on the rotating assembly, which at some point will cause weaker stock internals to fail. If this were untrue, then everyone at the track would be running pump gas and water injection with stock internals, because forged internals and race gas would just be a waste of money.

i understand that the internals have a limit but the limit is not always found on these engines because of knock and octane. i understand that you need a turbo capapble of running high boost but if you run the 14b at high boost you do not always make more power but i know from experience that you do make more torque with high boost. the stock 1g engine have been pushed past 500hp, this will allow you to do it more reliably. the last line of your quote makes it sound like everybody knows these tricks including you, im sure this is not the case. that is how people come up with new ideas and new ways to make more power with the mods that they have available. i under no circumstance said this was a replacement for stronger internals, but it could push both the stock or aftermarket internals a lot farther. whenever more heat is generated, more water can be added, along with more boost. i think this is one of the reasons why people are not making huge power on just water injection alone, without alcohol.
later

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

I'm not sure why you say alcohol ins't readily available. Don't you have a Home Depot or OSH around there? I tried 100% water, 50/50 water/alky mix, and 100% denatured alcohol, the latter was by far the best. Water is more to lower intake temps and can help with detonation (makes up for a smaller IC), but alcohol (or meth which I haven't tried yet) also more effectively raises the octane in the combustion chamber, allowing you to run much higher boost than you could normally on pump gas. With just a crap SAFC, just adding 100% alcohol injection allowed me to go from a max of 18-19 on 91 octane to about 22 psi with no knock, and MORE timing than I had at 19...I haven't gone past 22 yet, but it's got more in it. 100% water I was only able to run about 20 psi with no knock. Just FYI.

 

[hairybeanbag]

The meth is actually used to raise octane as well. I believe meth by it self has an octane rating of 120. So by running meth/water injection, you can have a race gas tune in a daily driver. plus, winter mix windshield washer fluid (about 49% water, 49%meth, 2% dies and other crap) is cheaper then 93 gas right now. So you just keep using your overpriced race gas....


Also, I do not think running low timing is the answer.... wouldn't that give you horrible off boost response? Of course, spool times would be lowered

I run race gas because my cars are not DD for me, I also run N20. Water injections is one more thing to complicate my setup that much more, I'm not knocking the use of it! I thinks it's great for you guy's on a budget! My cars only run on C16 because I can afford to buy it in 55 gallon drums and fill up in my garage when I want to go out and rip!

 

[donk]

I will probably just be repating what others have said, but i trink that meth injection is the way to go, it raises oct and thats the big thing you want when you are pushing for more psi on a srteetcar,Also the stock internals have a limit that you cant get past if you want to get past them- upgrade and run the boost you need to, if all you want is moore tourqe, nitrious rases tourque alot more than boost alone.

/A

 

[91-gsx]

i think i will go with alcohol because i can have the pressure switch turn on at 15psi and that way i wont waste as much of it. i am planning on running a crazy amount though so i can have about 50% of my fueling coming from alcohol, that way you can run as much boost and timing as you want. use the stock 450cc injectors along with the alcohol injection running about 1200cc of alcohol and you end up with a system with the capabilities of 850cc injectors. evenmore sense you can run a lot leaner on just alcohol alone, leaner then race gas. most of the really fast cars run off of straight alcohol. this way you have a car that runs off of gas when you drive it normally, but when you floor the pedal it is a whole other monster, literally monster!
later

 

[donmagicjuan]

i understand that the internals have a limit but the limit is not always found on these engines because of knock and octane.

Actually, if my information is correct I believe race gas still provides better knock suppression than pump gas + methanol or water injection. WI does have other benefits, however, such as the cleaning of the combustion chamber as already mentioned. I disagree that the limits of the stock internals cannot be reached because of knock thresholds. In fact, all water/meth injection does is raise the effective octane of your fuel, allowing you to run more boost before encountering knock. The limits of the stock internals can easily be reached and exceeded if a big enough turbo is matched with the appropriate supporting mods. A little research will inform you that this is even possible on pump gas alone.

i understand that you need a turbo capapble of running high boost but if you run the 14b at high boost you do not always make more power but i know from experience that you do make more torque with high boost.

How can you make more torque without making more power as a side effect? After all, power is nothing more than a function of torque vs. RPM. A turbo will only flow as much as its geometric dimensions allow. The properties of a 14B prevent it from producing the airflow required to exceed the power limitations of the stock internals. It wouldn't matter how much water you threw at it or how high you turned up the boost; it just wouldn't ever get there.

that is how people come up with new ideas and new ways to make more power with the mods that they have available. i under no circumstance said this was a replacement for stronger internals, but it could push both the stock or aftermarket internals a lot farther.

I appreciate your interest in innovative ideas, but what you're describing really isn't all that revolutionary. Water injection is a very common mod, and the optimum injection ratio is a fairly tried and true value. I think the flaw in your logic is expecting performance from a turbo that exceeds its limitations. Even if you run an EvoIII 16G with no boost source to its wastegate actuator, it will only peak at roughly 30 psi. I currently run 26 psi with water injection. The next time I tune I will be looking to run 27-28 psi, and I'm sure I will be far from the first person to ever do so.

 

[donmagicjuan]

evenmore sense you can run a lot leaner on just alcohol alone, leaner then race gas.

Guys that run straight methanol actually run about 5.5:1 AFRs, which are much richer than race gas.

 

[slipstream808]

I believe the amount that usually is shot for is 20% meth/water injection 80% fuel. Ultimately you'd have to experiment and see what works best for your setup, but with all that meth that you'd like to run, you'd go through it very fast, and need very big injectors for it. Ask Don nicely what he runs and maybe he'll let you know what he runs!

And how does lower timing increase engine temps? Advancing timing puts more of the combustion inside the piston and decresing it puts more out of the exhaust. At least that's what I've heard/read, etc.

 

[91-gsx]

acutally donmagicjuan, i was not talking about maxing out my engine with the 14b using water injection, how about you understand what i am saying before you belittle my ideas. alcohol injected cars do not run at richer state because they use more alcohol, it because alcohol does not hold the same molecular weight as water does, that is why they have to use about 3 times more alcohol for it to be the equivalent of gas. now you are still thinking about what you hear and have read too many times, what you say is right about people who run injection systems as a way of cooling, but what i am talking about is actually running your car off of alcohol when it goes under high boost, with the small 14b or a bigger turbo, it does not matter. when drag cars run methanol injection to replace their intercoolers, they also run methanol for their gas, i wonder why, thats right because if you have a system based on methanol, it will beat a race gas powered car. ask john shephard man, thats what he is doing now. he runs it all the time, the way i wanted to do it is to have it activated at high boost.

 

[91-gsx]

found a post that supports what i am saying, this is also were i got the idea and read more on it.
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1617479&postcount=34

 

[donmagicjuan]

Relax. There's no need to feel like you're being attacked. I wasn't trying to belittle you or your ideas with my post, but I still contend that what you're talking about doesn't seem very logical to me.

Actually, the ideal AFR for methanol has little to do with the molecular weight of the compound. It is a result of the chemical reaction that takes place when consuming the fuel. The reason a given engine can make more power on methanol than it can on gasoline has to do with the amount of thermal energy released per unit of airflow. Read more here.

I think I understand a little more what you're trying to say, but I don't see how this will be more desirable than simply configuring your engine to run on straight meth. It just sounds like it would be more trouble than it's worth.

. . . i was not talking about maxing out my engine with the 14b using water injection, . . . what i am talking about is actually running your car off of alcohol when it goes under high boost . . .

In my defense, your thread title of "water injection pushes stock engine farther" didn't support this at all.

 

[donk]

Seem to me it would be more problem running this set up than just running straight meth, as i understand it you would for running this setup and with those kind of volyme on meth, extra fuel tank, extar pump extra injecktors, all methsafe custom lines and something to control them with, running for example pressureguards seems a little bit tacky at these levels.

/A

 

[Defiant]

It's 2006. We've been dicking with motors for more than a century. It's been tried. Other than advances in electronic control of injection and timing, new ideas are very nearly exhausted.
It's not clear what water does inside a combustion chamber, nor what its true effects on the burning process are.
Although your ideas are to be praised for the attempted goal, you're chasing your tail .

 

[91-gsx]

donmagicjuan, you said you are running the evo3 16g you have at 26psi on water injection. is that water and alcohol mixed? what precentage of alcohol to water do you use? how big is your injector, in cc or gph? and at what psi do you have it activated? you obviously are having great results with injection, and no hard feelings man, i could see were my post might throw people off.
thanks for the help

 

[donmagicjuan]

Nah, no hard feelings at all!

I'm currently running a progressive controller with a 7 gph nozzle using a 50/50 mix. The controller is set to energize the pump at about 6 psi and reaches full flow at about 21 psi. I'm seriously considering bumping up to a 10 gph nozzle and using about a 25% water/75% meth mixture, just to experiment with something different. Once I get the GM MAF up and running, it's bye-bye to the washer fluid anyway (residue on the MAF wires? no thank you!).

With all of that I'll be tuning for about 27-28 psi to see if I can squeeze a little more out of my hairdryer.

 

[91-gsx]

ive read that the best way to get the most out of an injection setup is to use straight alcohol. whenever they try that and mixes, the alcohol always comes on top. i am planning on running a 14gph, but all alcohol no water. another question i had for you, or more of concern of mine is the tuning out of the extra liquid. how much did you lean it out with your injection? you generally have to lean it out the more liquid you run. but what i am afraid of is this, what if i take a 3rd gear log and tune my alcohol injection to kick in at 15psi. well if i tune for it in third that is fine, say it hits 15psi with my 14b at 3000rpm. and i lean out from 3,000rpms and over, well if i hit the gas in 1st gear it might hit full boost at 3600rpm or soo, but later then 3rd none the less. so the problem i see with this is that in first gear, it will lean out the wot settings on dsmlink from 3,000 and over, but the alcohol will still not have been injected and i might run into a very lean area. what did you do to prevent this, or should i not worry about this type of situation?
thanks for the help