Water Injection??

[abudobi]

Has anyone used one of those water injection kits? Anyone have anything good to say about them? I've been trying to do some research on the. they say they add HP, Torque, and gas milage. Sounds too good to be true.

 

[Bd1000Eclipse]

I love my water injection kit that i put together. Comes on at 12psi and allows me to run 20-23 psi on pump gas on my 20g turbo. Cleans the engine nice. I can't vouch for gas mileage. I use blue winshield washer fluid tapped straight from the front washer bottle. I also have two led's hooked up to a switch inside. One comes when armed, the other when spraying. I also used a oil pressure gauge hooked to my solenoid to read the pressure and tell me when im low on water. But either way great mod.

 

[abudobi]

So you just spraying washer fluid into your enigne? Do you have any pics? I have to see this set up. I always thought water + engine = bad news . . .

 

[Bd1000Eclipse]

washer fluid is like 49% water, 50% alcohol and 1% blue dye. So it's just like water/alcohol injection. Straight water runs the chances of it freezing in the bottle on cold days. Water+engine=good news if done right.

 

[abudobi]

, good stuff. So how do you make your setup? Any pictures?

 

[slowpokin699]

DIY:
http://www.4x4racecar.net/water_injection.htm

vendors:
http://www.smcenterprises.com/
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

good info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_water_injection/


i'm gonna do the DIY system on the first link... water/alcohol injection=

 

[Defiant]

The main thing the alcohol does is prevent the water from freezing- lots of people just buy their own alcohol at Home Depot & Racing Supply and mix their own. The blue dye will build up in some systems, but seems harmless to the car.

It takes a _helluva_ lot of water to damage an engine. The amount of water used in injection systems is about twice whay you pick up in the heaviest fog. And it does just magical things to the combustion process. I've yet to run across an agreed-upon explanation why.

 

[KFT0001]

Water injection itself doesn't make more power. It just makes it safe to make more power.

 

[vlaar]

You have any photos of your setup? I'm looking to build a water injection kit, but don't know what exactly I need besides a Shurflo 100psi pump and aquamist nozzles... Thanks.

 

[Bd1000Eclipse]

No i'm sorry i dont have any.. i can try to take some..
You need the lines, solenoid, and nozzle, and a place to get the water from. Also the hobbs switch to turn the water on.

 

[abudobi]

I was told by someone that water injection can lead to burnt valves. Is this true?

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by abudobi
I was told by someone that water injection can lead to burnt valves. Is this true?

Not by itself. The more likely damage, in cases of _extreme_ amounts of water, is erosion of the head.

Your story sounds like the one about open pipes causing valves to warp.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by Defiant
It takes a _helluva_ lot of water to damage an engine.

I can vouch for this. I've sprayed a garden hose straight into the throttle body of a running motor and it wouldn't die.

And it does just magical things to the combustion process. I've yet to run across an agreed-upon explanation why.

The water stabilizes the combustion process, cools, and makes it less likely for detonation to happen. I don't know all of the chemistry behind it, so I won't give you half of it.

 

[REDBLUR]

If you look at the specific heat of water compared to fuel you will notice that the specific heat of water(l) is about twice that of gasoline(l). Specific heat is the energy required to raise the temperature of a unit mass of a substance (in this case the charge w/water) by one degree. Obviously a higher specific heat is better, when the charge enters the combustion chamber it absorbs more of the heat from the previous exhauststroke as the water vaporizes and turns to steam. Removing that excess heat in the combustion chamber reduces the likely hood of pre-ignition and detonation.

Alcohols, such as methanol and ethanol, have a specific heat that is relatively the same as gasoline. Their purpose is to prevent freezing, and if needed, to add extra fuel to the charge. One problem with running a higher alcohol/water ratio is that alcohol in higher concentrations can eat away at various rubbers and plastics found in many pump seals. Reducing the concentration of water also reduces the effectiveness of removing heat. You must tune your mixture to find the happy medium.

The entire combustion process is still not entirely understood(happens to fast), but water has the ability to do some wonderful things when injected in the right proportion.

 

[1gE.T.]

Originally posted by kpt4321
I can vouch for this. I've sprayed a garden hose straight into the throttle body of a running motor and it wouldn't die.



Just curious why did you do that?

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by 1gE.T.

Originally posted by kpt4321
I can vouch for this. I've sprayed a garden hose straight into the throttle body of a running motor and it wouldn't die.

Just curious why did you do that?

Some friends and I had a motor we didn't need that didn't have any resale value, and we were curious. )

It would stumble, stall, and then start right back up. After 15 minutes of this, it still ran fine the next day. That is, of course, until we drained the oil, drove 50 mph in first for hours on end, and downshifted into first at 70+ mph. At that point, one of the rods was like "screw you guys, I'm outta here." Boom.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by REDBLUR
If you look at the specific heat of water compared to fuel you will notice that the specific heat of water(l) is about twice that of gasoline(l). Specific heat is the energy required to raise the temperature of a unit mass of a substance (in this case the charge w/water) by one degree. Obviously a higher specific heat is better, when the charge enters the combustion chamber it absorbs more of the heat from the previous exhauststroke as the water vaporizes and turns to steam. Removing that excess heat in the combustion chamber reduces the likely hood of pre-ignition and detonation.

Now, then. If the air coming out of the turbo is running up to 250°F, is there a payoff in spraying into that hot air before the intercooler?

The entire combustion process is still not entirely understood(happens to fast),

And that's on street motors. What in the HELL is going on inside things like Formula One, or the 4-stroke racing motorcycle engines turning upward of fifteen-thousand RPM?

"I scratch my head and stare and wonder...."

It's a very odd circumstance that we live on a planet that has just the right kind of dirt to melt down and build stuff out of.... and then there are the guys thinking it all up.

 

[REDBLUR]

Originally posted by Defiant
Now, then. If the air coming out of the turbo is running up to 250°F, is there a payoff in spraying into that hot air before the intercooler? And that's on street motors.

I do believe there would be a payoff in reducing the air temps after the turbo, but you would have to spray so much water into your LICP to make it effective. Too much water is no good, because we all know water doesn't burn.

I think taking advantage of the intercooler first, which does a better job of removing heat than WI, and then injecting water to further reduce intake temps is the ideal setup.

But I was thinking, maybe spraying a little bit of water before the IC may help with intercooler effciency, removing unwanted heat from the IC. But then again, too much water is no good. Why not just focus entirely on the air charge, and let the water remove heat ideally, just from the intake air and not its surroundings. This is probably why it is a good idea to inject the water just befor the throttle body, as this is the last place it is convient enough to inject water into the air befor it enters the combustion chamber. But, if you inject the water too close to the combustion process, the air turbulence may not be enough to throughly mix the water into the air charge, and you run the risk of a misfire if a pocket of this unmixed charge just happens to be in the vicinty of the spark. This can happen without WI also, where just a pocket of unmixed air happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for those formula cars spinning at upwards of 19000 RPM. I was told, don't know if it's true or not, that spinning the motor any higher would result in the piston velocity exceeding the speed of sound (RPM dependent on rod/stroke ratio). This inturn causing several problems which I am not tooclear on, maybe try to do a search. I think definately the acoustics of a sonic boom would wreak havoc in the combustion chamber.

(Take the above as a grain of salt, sorry but schools been getting to me lately, just putting my thinking cap on.)

 

[KGB Pilot125]

aquamist thought of this too pulled this from the syty archives

Hello Adam,
>
>We have been considered the option but recently we have come across
>something interesting and decided not to go for that particular product yet.
>
>One interesting finding recently whilst doing a product development test on
>a WRX. We placed a 0.4mm jet in front of the intercooler and a 1mm jet after
>the
>intercooler. During the 7- hour intemittant dyno runs, the intercooler never
>go above
>ambient - below ambient during idle when some residual water is still being
>evaporated.
>
>As soon as we removed the 0.4mm in front of the interccoler, we can see the
>speed the temparature on the cores rise, you can feel the heat as you
>approach it with
>you bear hand, never had the bravery to try, so we quickly spray the
>inetrcooler with the
>water jet and continued for 10 minutes., it was still too hot to tuoch!
>Another amazing
>thing we discovered - we were only injecting 70cc/minute! It is an
>interesting fact
>that spraying the intercooler externally does not have the same effect as
>internal WI.
>
>
>Richard
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ivanko Barbell Company Authorized Dealer" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 9:18 PM
>Subject: Intelligent Intercooler Spray Control Module
>
>
> > Any plans on producing something like this?
> >
> > http://www.autospeed.com/shop/category_705/browse.html
> >
> > Love your products. Keep up the good work.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Adam Auerbach
> > GMC Syclone #2419

 

[Defiant]

Be clear I don't mean to spray the IC, but to spray the intake just after the turbo.

Does WI want water vapor, or water droplets?

These are the kinds of things that are tough to find on the web.... and I'm sure it's out there someplace.


Hm. Pistons faster than sound. Hmmmm.

 

[nine5raptor]

I think the general idea is to go for a mist from the nozzle. After that, you will end up with both as some of the mist is going to collect and form droplets.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

Originally posted by Defiant
Be clear I don't mean to spray the IC, but to spray the intake just after the turbo.

Does WI want water vapor, or water droplets?

These are the kinds of things that are tough to find on the web.... and I'm sure it's out there someplace.


Hm. Pistons faster than sound. Hmmmm.

they are talking about 2 nozzles one after the turbo but before the IC and one after the IC before the TB

 

[KGB Pilot125]

Originally posted by Defiant
Be clear I don't mean to spray the IC, but to spray the intake just after the turbo.

Does WI want water vapor, or water droplets?

These are the kinds of things that are tough to find on the web.... and I'm sure it's out there someplace.


Hm. Pistons faster than sound. Hmmmm.

they are talking about 2 nozzles one after the turbo but before the IC and one after the IC before the TB

 

[REDBLUR]

^^^^^ Good find.

If I had the funds to test out something like this I would. I wonder if they had problems with water pooling in the IC?

 

[herostar]

If you did spray water before the IC there is also the chance that the water could go through the BOV return line and through the turbo. This could also potentially create a buildup of water somewhere in the intake system. What could the negative effects of this be?