Turn key to "ON" position = starter engages.

[UofACATS]

Turning the key to on results in the car trying to start. The starter relay (I think that's what it is called) behind the radio whines loudly and I can feel it buzzing when the car is trying to start. When I unplug this relay, the car still tries to start at "on." With the small wire to the starter removed, the key can be "on" without any start action, of course. This leads me to believe the thin wire to the starter is receiving power when it should not be. If the vehicle DOES start, I assume the starter will stay engaged. Before I start it, I need to prime the turbo, so hooking up the MPI fuse (currently unhooked) and just starting the car is not an option.

I've done many mods over three weeks. Turbo, FMIC, battery, exhaust, FP, FP rewire, wideband, radiator, and other stuff I'm forgetting.

Here's a thread with my exact symptoms, but was never resolved, or never updated: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/problem-diagnosis/84935-starter-engaging-when-key-position.html



Edit: RESOLVED. Eventually found damage to the harness behind the plug in the firewall where the wire for the FP rewire passes through (pass side near the battery).

 

[Avionixx]

I would begin with the ignition switch and trace the circuit from there. It's obvious there's either a short or a crossed wire somewhere along the line.

 

[luv2rallye]

^^^ agreed.

 

[UofACATS]

OK, I'll access the area and start taking apart the harness.

As far as the starter itself, is there any way I have the thick power wire powering the thin? I can see the connections, but just barely, and I can feel them, but it is one of the things I messed with (pulled the thick wire to clean it up) The connections at the starter seem pretty fool-proof to hook up.

The starter relay buzzes/vibrates when the key is "on" but the relay itself tests fine. Some wire, somewhere is crossed. If the thick wire (constant power) is powering the thin somehow, it could provide the conditions I'm getting.

Just to make things worse, I got a DTC via DSMlink. P0335. Crankshaft position sensor circuit malfunction. I don't know if it's related.

 

[Avionixx]

I seriously doubt there are any issues with the wiring of the starter itself. You have to understand that there are only two sources of power going to the starter: the thick battery connection (which is always hot) and the solenoid wire (which is supplied power by the starter relay, which in turn is given juice by the ignition switch).

If for some odd reason there was a short or jumped wire at the starter connections, then the starter would likely be spinning constantly, regardless of the key's position.

 

[UofACATS]

OK, that helps a bunch. Someone told me today the black/yellow wire supplied GROUND to the starter, causing it to engage prematurely. Then, when I tested that wire and got +12v I was surprised and thought that must be my problem.

The thing is, the black/yellow wire shows +12v while the key is "on." Is that correct? I also tested for +12v power at the starter relay with the key "on" and got about 9.75v, if that information is helpful.


At any rate, thank you for the assistance.

 

[Avionixx]

Actually the black/yellow wire provides power to the starter solenoid. The only time it should have +12v is when the key is on the Start position. The same goes for the starter relay. So now you know you're getting voltage at the starter relay when you're not supposed to, so you can move further up the circuit.

 

[luv2rallye]

Unplug the starter relay (right one of the two relays) and see if you still get voltage on it's black/red wire. You should get +12 only when in start position. 9.75V means there's a short or current draw somewhere, probably in the ignition switch.

 

[UofACATS]

Will do. Thanks again everyone for the help.

 

[UofACATS]

Update.


Tested power at starter relay. There are four wires there.

Black/yellow: 12v at key on and 12v at key start
Black/red: 0.00 at key on and 12v at key start
Black/red 0.00 at key on and 12v at key start
Black/green 0.00 at key on and 0.00 at key start

This tells me the ignition switch is operating correctly, I believe.

The black/yellow is getting power from somewhere. On both ends of the black/yellow wire I see 12v. This is testing under the hood near the starter and in the car at the relay. My question is, where does the black/yellow route as it comes off the starter relay? Where does it go? Does is connect with other wires or just go directly to the starter? I've located a shop manual, but I don't have it in my hands just yet.

THANK YOU for the help!

 

[luv2rallye]

It also goes to ECU pin 71.
Does/did your car have an aftermarket theft alarm or remote starter? It may be connected up incorrectly to one of them or one of their components has failed (eg. stuck relay).

 

[UofACATS]

Does/did your car have an aftermarket theft alarmQUOTE]

Yes. I started to remove it a couple days ago, but then thought it better to not touch anything else and create additional possibilities.

 

[luv2rallye]

That could easily be your problem. Try disconnecting (ALL) of it.

 

[UofACATS]

Crappy update.

A while ago I decided to perform a little test. I cut the black/yellow wire at both ends that I could see. One at the starter, and one at the fuel pump relay behind the stereo. Then, I tested both ends and saw +12v on both with the key on. Now I know the power is not coming from the starter or the starter relay.

I started tracing the black/yellow wire from both sides to see if I could locate the problem. I found the wire inside the vehicle just before it passed through the firewall into the engine compartment. I tested it there and it still showed +12v. I realize as I type this that the test would have shown me something useful if I cut the wire at the various test places, and then tested both ends. Anyway, then I tested it under the hood near the battery on the other side of the firewall. To access the wire in the harness I had to remove the battery. With wire showing, I installed the battery and tested the wire. It showed 0.03. Confused, I tested it again inside the car near the firewall. That showed 0.03 too. Further, I tested it near the started and again it showed 0.03. This is all with the key on. The battery still showed +12v.

This new development seemed to have developed from nowhere. Perplexed, I connected everything up again and tried to start it. (Before, with the key on and all the wires connected, it would crank at key on but this time it didn't.) It turned over twice then "caught" on something it sounded like. Tried again, same result. A crank or two, then it catches on something and forces the starter action to stop. The third try resulted in not even one crank, just the starter struggling to turn the flywheel.

It's been almost a month now. I'm just about ready to cut my losses.

 

[97GSRyan]

Crappy update.

A while ago I decided to perform a little test. I cut the black/yellow wire at both ends that I could see. One at the starter, and one at the fuel pump relay behind the stereo. Then, I tested both ends and saw +12v on both with the key on. Now I know the power is not coming from the starter or the starter relay.

I started tracing the black/yellow wire from both sides to see if I could locate the problem. I found the wire inside the vehicle just before it passed through the firewall into the engine compartment. I tested it there and it still showed +12v. I realize as I type this that the test would have shown me something useful if I cut the wire at the various test places, and then tested both ends. Anyway, then I tested it under the hood near the battery on the other side of the firewall. To access the wire in the harness I had to remove the battery. With wire showing, I installed the battery and tested the wire. It showed 0.03. Confused, I tested it again inside the car near the firewall. That showed 0.03 too. Further, I tested it near the started and again it showed 0.03. This is all with the key on. The battery still showed +12v.

This new development seemed to have developed from nowhere. Perplexed, I connected everything up again and tried to start it. (Before, with the key on and all the wires connected, it would crank at key on but this time it didn't.) It turned over twice then "caught" on something it sounded like. Tried again, same result. A crank or two, then it catches on something and forces the starter action to stop. The third try resulted in not even one crank, just the starter struggling to turn the flywheel.

It's been almost a month now. I'm just about ready to cut my losses.

Have you replaced/checked your Crankshaft Sensor? At least from my experiences, that could easily cause the no-crank problem.

As far as the sudden voltage change, it's possible that when you removed and re-installed the battery you bumped the area where the short is. Since I'm not an electrical genius can anyone confirm that theory?

 

[UofACATS]

Yeah, just changed it.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/pro...haft-position-sensor-circuit-malfunction.html

I'm not getting a CEL anymore, but I've only cranked it three times so I can't say for certian that problem has been resolved.


I probably did adjust something when I moved the battery. I was pulling on the harness as well to carefully cut it open with a razor. I'm not cutting my losses with this car just yet, I was just too frustrated when I posted last. I'm slowly opening up the harness and tracking the problem wire until I see something.

Thanks for the help.

 

[jakedasnake]

i just got done reading this thread and i am amazed to hear that you are having tha same problem as me and i have found many thoughts on here useful for when i get home to try and figure mine out but in my case i found a wire that melted a little bit it was a (condensor) if im not mistaken its that little (can) looking thing in the driver side intake mani that wire melted out of no where so i traced it back a rplace it an fixed any others but my same problem still persists and by the way i took my hole harness out ill let you know what i find again but your case deffinatly sounds like its being grounded out somewhere between the firewall what im going to do tonight is cmpletely replace the black/yell starter wire from the relay to starter by itself out side the car an see what happens you should try that that way theres nothing there to interfere please let me know what you find that would be great if we could help eachother figure this out thanks ,Jacob

 

[UofACATS]

what im going to do tonight is cmpletely replace the black/yell starter wire from the relay to starter by itself out side the car .. please let me know what you find

That was a test I performed a while ago. It does nothing when I try to start it. Here's a little information from my research on the subject. It seems the black/yellow wire also powers the SRS system and the MFI system. Bypassing it won't work.

 

[UofACATS]

Back to work on it today.

Double checked all my connections. With key on, I get a rapid click under the hood. Maybe 10, loud clicks. I don't want to try to start it just yet. I only have myself to diagnose this today so I pulled the battey cable then turned the key on in the car. Then I stuck my head under the hood and connected the battery cable to simulate me turning the key on in the car.

I hear the clicking from what seems to be the intake manifold area, maybe under the intake manifold. But, we all know it's tough to determine the exact source of the click, especially when I have to power the car with the battery cable each time.

I'm making a short vid now.

 

[UofACATS]

Injector # 3 is the source of the click.

I managed to power the car with one hand while locating the source with the other. Here is the short vid:

YouTube - DSM no start

 

[jakedasnake]

This is where our symptoms split my car will start the only thing wrong is the starter stays on!!! But in your case in the video and me not physicaly being there it really sound like the starter solinoid which takes you back to square one but if it really is an injector ive never heard them get that loud. I've heard normal injector ticking but not that severe you may want to test the wires to the injector you hear making that noise and its wiring back to the harness. Also i noticed the ignitor box plug out in the vid did you just take that out to not risk burning it or to cut out spark I could be wrong on both assumtions but when my symptoms began that went out on me after replacing a day later a random wire melts so Im still at a loss and Im trying to sell mine! Not to sway from your thread but do you know of any way to rewire the starter to work like normal again in my case if all else is ok? hey in both our cases if all else fails, the most we would have to spend would be for another wire harness even though im deff not looking to spend that kind of money! (and maybe a starter!) lemme know what happens!

 

[UofACATS]

It starts.

Just barely, and idles at 400 RPM. Any gas stalls the motor.

I have issues with the wiring to the injectors given the #3 injector clicking at key on and I also show DTC P0201. Injector #1 circuit malfunction. I think these two are related. Again, spending a bit of time researching lead me to this picture.

I posted a log of the startup for those with DSMlink.
DSMLink User Group Forums

Again, thank you.

 

[UofACATS]

I think I found my problem. The above posts led me to a revelation. There's a short somewhere in the system, but it's not a specifc sensor or area with the problem, it's the area that's the path of least resistance for the electricity to follow. Example, my starter used to be the path of least resistance. Then it was my injector just to screw with me. But, unplugging that injector resulted in another clicking. Unplugging that injector resulted in another relay clicking somewhere else, and so on... So, with advice from a good friend, I followed all those clicking items and you guessed it, they all led to the same harness. So, I started cutting and looking at every wire, which is good fun.


I found my problem eventually when I got all the way down to where I drilled through the plug in the firewall for the FP rewire (from inside the car). Looks like I drilled into the harness a bit Basically, the power from the wires inside the harness was going where it wasn't supposed to go. When I moved my battery the last time, the small movement of the harness shifted the power elsewhere, resulting in my injectors going crazy. You can laugh now.


My boy is coming over to soilder that ish back together, then the turbo gets primed, then midnight freeway tuning pulls. THEN this gets marked resolved.

THANK YOU to every one of you that helped here. I learned more than I wanted to.

 

[UofACATS]

Resolved.

All my problems stemmed from damage to the harness. Repaired and all is good. 3065 =

 

[jakedasnake]

thats great man my was doing almost the same thing only it melted my turbo timer harness rewired it and it was as good as new its also time for me to go and enjoy my new cams along with a little tune to up the boost from stock is gonna be fun! glad you got it all taken care of and yeah the wire harness was really fun taking all apart good informative thread!