turbo or fuel upgrades?

[Stapl3]

This thread will never get anywhere because it's all opinionated and everyone thinks everyone is wrong.

 

[sweet97]

660's aren't gonna do it for a 50 trim at 18psi I'd say, I have watched Chris on his dsmlink, and he showed 80% duty cycle at 22 psi on his 880's, and his base fuel pressure was a tad high from the return line being too small.

If you're afraid of 880's, then do the 720's, you'd hate to get it all setup and tuned with the 620's and then be maxed out.

I first tried 720's with my 50 trim even after I was told 660's would be enough. The amount of fuel adjustment was just too much giving the motor way too much timing. DSMlink or some other burned chip would be best for anything over 660's IMHO. I traded the 720's for a set of 660's and couldn't be happier.
Knowing exactly what you want from your car is the most important decision so you don't buy parts twice as I have. I now have a 2.5" SS turbo back and have to sell it at $400. which is a $150. dollar loss after only 3 months use because I went to the 50 trim and would like a 3" system now. I have at least learned much in one season with the car!! Mark

 

[1bad92awd]

Definatly get supporting mods first. If you get the turbo first, yes you can run probably what like 12 psi off the wastegate actuator, but think of it this way, the extra power your car is making is stressing the rest of your "non-upgraded" parts. Make sure you have an intake filter, get some injectors a fuel pump and SAFC or some type of fuel control first. Even the little stuff will make tiny increases in power, and finally when you do get your turbo, then you will experience the new found power everyone talks about. But by not getting supporting mods, you are taking a risk of playing a little game of catch up with your car once your o2 sensor fails, and your blow off valve leaks and your engine detonates due to extremely lean conditions.

 

[goofynick6]

Yeah, for SAFC users, don't do 880's, I was aiming my comment at those people with the 50 trim/dsmlink in mind

Nick

 

[jim97gst]

I know the original post was with regard specifically to fuel supporting mods, but what about an intercooler upgrade before or at the same time as an evo3 16g? I am just a fuel pump away from having all the supporting mods for an evo3 16G (intake, full exhaust, dsmlink, 650s (haven't installed yet)) except for a FMIC/upgraded SMIC. Should I still be able to run pretty well for a while with an upgraded turbo until I upgrade the IC? I'm sure there are many of you who have followed this same path. I'd hate to get a new turo and have to run it at 12 psi to avoid knock until I got an upgraded IC.

 

[1bad92awd]

Yes you are right, an upgraded intercooler should be your next priority, but wait til after you get the turbo for that to avoid redoing all of your intercooler piping, remember, an evo III 16g will have a bigger inlet as compared to stock, so get the intercooler afterwards and only turn the boost up a little bit and just try to deal with it until you can afford the intercooler again.

 

[kottyking]

This thread will never get anywhere because it's all opinionated and everyone thinks everyone is wrong.

Lol! very true my friend. If you want to do things the right way just piece everything you need together then one day give her the all the things she needs at once. Fuel pump, fmic,16g, bigger injectors and some form of tuning. Exhaust and all that too. Think about how happy that day would be!

 

[97TSIAWD]

Lol! very true my friend. If you want to do things the right way just piece everything you need together then one day give her the all the things she needs at once. Fuel pump, fmic,16g, bigger injectors and some form of tuning. Exhaust and all that too. Think about how happy that day would be!

Buying everything at once and slapping them all on together isn't exactly the best idea. You want to put one thing on at a time and tune, see how the car reacts. If you put everything on and go slower then what? You don't know what did good, what did harm. The topic is turbo or fuel. Again I'll say that the turbo for a good deal/price should be picked up now since you can get it for a good price, then the fuel. You can also get fuel deals with a pump, injectors and safc from many places for a good deal.

 

[Mr.Tao]

Everyone wants a nice big turbo. It's Temptation Island. I'd say buy your fuel or supporting mods first. Since your stock turbo is still working, use it to it's limits. Then get the turbo later. Dont waste your money on a big turbo with 10 psi and go slow. Fuel then Intercooler. As for tires, it's up to you. I say if you got AWD, tires will be ok to upgrade later, but if you are FWD, it's really up to you.

 

[Downtime]

Thank you for your words of wisdom.Ihave been reading,bookmarking, and printing info from searches i have found on this board and it truley is to have someone calculate and speak in a knowledgeable fasion.I too as well find too many people here on the same bandwagon.And it is very nice to read some definate info as oppossed to the butt dyno or benchracer.Seriously, have you ever thought of housting your own site to educate other's ?i am extremely new to dsm and engine modification but i'm slowly learning as i go and i do thank you for your info.

 

[16g-95gsx]

Haha, I appreciate the kind words, I'm glad you found it useful. Thats really the point of me posting this stuff up is exactly that, I feel there are entirely too many people playing bench racer and putting up blanket statements anytime someone asks a question. In some cases you really just have to look at the situation and judge what the best method would be, you shouldnt just simply say "get all the supporting mods before the turbo", without honestly sitting down and weighing all the options. I for one agree that having a nice setup is extremely key, and I am in no way preaching risking blowing up your setup, that is the sole reason I tried calculating out some of those figures for you guys to show exactly where the threshholds are, and how far he would be able to take a setup such as the basic Evo 16g. In this guy's case, he runs a T25 stock, which dies off very quickly, and as mentioned will flow Id imagine at LEAST 20% less than the Evo 16g even on 14psi or so (this is assuming the T25 at maximum capabilities, again they flow generally around 25lb/min at best, the Evo 16g I am assuming is starting at 30lb/min at that low of boost, so its not "going slow" by any means in comparison). At that kind of airflow, he would be pushing around where the limits of a 14b turbo would be at most, which the stock 2g fuel pump if rewired can handle, as well as the injectors. I wouldnt recommend pushing it further, but like I said if he were to pick up the turbo he'd have his T25 to sell off and very quickly pay for some of his fueling components. As others have mentioned I think everyone is quick to think that they instantly want a big big turbo to push big big power, but really for 99% of the people out there an Evo 16g is all they'd ever need. On an excellently setup car, you can see upwards of 380-400awhp, all while still achieving full boost by 3100rpms or so, there are so many people out there who run 50trims who havent even seen those kind of figures, and yet are happy because they have a big turbo. Like I've said everyone has their opinions, but one of the sad things is I find that alot of the people on this forum dont generally like to sit and listen to things. I've been into DSMs for about 5 years now, and I know, and I'm sure you've noticed, that people generally love to just give generic answers to everyones questions, and honestly if thats all a person is given, then there really is no point to asking questions in the first place. This is why I tried to give as much as I could to back up why I felt it was fine, as long as he was willing to not crank it at all.

 

[slow_talon]

Why not buy a 14b or a small 16g for that price and get all the supporting mods, believe me you will definitaly feel a great difference. plust i think your stock clutch will handle a bit more plus you can always sell the 14b or small 16g when you are ready for a bigger setup.

 

[16g-95gsx]

To use a 14b you must buy a used turbo, which could potentially not even be a good turbo. Plus that would be its LIMITS, I dont think you guys quite see what I'm saying here. The Evo 16g at that low of boost would be pushing similar figures most likely to the 14b at its max. As for a 16g, why the hell would you just go with a regular 16g when an Evo 16g is so close in cost, and provides a good 3-5lb/min more potential? 3-5lb/min isnt a small figure, thats what most people expect on a really nice setup when swapping cams, to give an idea of the difference. An Evo 16g can be had for 550 bucks or so brand new from a vendor, I dont really see how getting a small 16g would benefit him. If anything that would be the wrong choice IMO. If he's willing to go with a used turbo, then Id just say go with a used Evo 16g, theres no point in going with a regular 16g when Evo's provide much more potential, have the same spool characteristics, and cost only about 100 dollars more. To install any of these turbos you will need the same install pieces, however the 14b would limit performance, and really only gain about 20% over the T25 in total, where as the 16g would take it to around 35lb/min or so at best, and the Evo 16g reaching upwards of 38-40lb/min, 8-10lb/min over the 14b is enough IMO to say dont even waste time with a 14b since you'll be buying the same installation components already.

 

[mstrpimp02]

wow... i didn't know i'd start such a debate. you guys might as well not talk me out of the evo 16g b/c that's the only turbo i'm going to buy for this car. all i wanted to know is if i should get the turbo or the fuel upgrades first and most of you answered my question, just some did it in a lot more words than others. i guess i should've told you my mod list first. but to narrow it down, the fuel/tuning and the turbo will be the last things i will need, aside from a clutch of course. i already have an intake, dp, exhaust, tt, ebc, suspension, stereo etc... and like i said b4, if i get the turbo now it won't be going on til late spring so by then i could have the supporting fuel mods too. i guess i could've just asked if you guys thought that $786 for the turbo ported and with the flapper mod, which i won't be getting thanks to everyones advice, is a good price for this turbo and the kit?

Thanks for all the responses guys

 

[goofynick6]

I'd say the majority of people on here are sooo afraid about upgrading their turbo, when they shouldn't be. The Big 16g isn't really big, a 50 trim isn't even big if you ask me, and I have some turbo experience. The big 16g I would consider to but just a step above something OEM, as it still spools very quickly but has great potential to satisfy, like Chris said, 99% of people on here.

3100 rpm full boost is really ideal for almost any situation, except for maybe someone drag racing a fwd vehicle, in which case you'd want something with more flow anyway if you're drag racing it...right?

My current car gets 18psi by 4300rpms, that's some lag. 3100rpms is perfect if you ask me

So, in other words don't be afraid of 16g's, they're the turbo that should have come on the car in the first place (a la Evo )

Nick

 

[97TSIAWD]

I'd say the majority of people on here are sooo afraid about upgrading their turbo, when they shouldn't be. The Big 16g isn't really big, a 50 trim isn't even big if you ask me, and I have some turbo experience. The big 16g I would consider to but just a step above something OEM, as it still spools very quickly but has great potential to satisfy, like Chris said, 99% of people on here.

3100 rpm full boost is really ideal for almost any situation, except for maybe someone drag racing a fwd vehicle, in which case you'd want something with more flow anyway if you're drag racing it...right?

My current car gets 18psi by 4300rpms, that's some lag. 3100rpms is perfect if you ask me

So, in other words don't be afraid of 16g's, they're the turbo that should have come on the car in the first place (a la Evo )

Nick

Exactly I have a small 16g and run low 12's close to 11's. Unless you want something bigger it works fine for most of us dsm'ers. If our cars would have come with them in the first place it would have been even better. But for most a 50 trim may not seem big but for it's potential in our car of low 11's or even faster, that is a big turbo that requires a lot of skill. One reason why a lot of 50 trim owners are only in the 12's still. But since you want the 16g because your getting such a good deal like I said, go for it. By the time you put the turbo on in the spring you may have enough for the rest of the mods fuel/ic.