trying something new need some help running 2 extra injectors

[bigblock]

I'm going to try something this weekend and wanted some input (please don't rag me to hard I'm only going to try this if it don't work I will remove it)and any ideas on how to make it work would help. I bought the kit in the pic. for $200 dollars from a locale junk yard I'm installing the fmic and going to try to use the throttle body injectors,i don't think they won't bolt up , but my machine shop will drill my spare manifold for the 2 extra injectors right after the throttle body. I will try to tape into the fuel line be for fuel rail and run the extra injectors and fpr then tie back into the stock return line I'll be running a 2g maf and relying on the Extra injectors to correct the tuning
I don't know what I asking here just thought some input to help me out would be nice
If you don't think it will work tell me and any help on tuning would be nice after i get the car running I'll use my friends dsm link to check the tuning knock counts and adjust the extra injectors to get the fuel mixture right I would like to run 20psi is this possible?
here is a Link the the site that sells the kit HTTP://www.turbo-kits.com/lancer_turbo_kits.html. Oh yea I have a used walbro 190 and if i can use a 250 if you don't think it will over run the system

 

[hystericfox]

Theres a bunch of information in this thread about the possibilities of using a dual fuel system. I've honestly been considering this for awhile, I'd like to see someone who has done it successfully.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106308&highlight=dual+fuel

 

[bigblock]

thanks I must have missed that while searching

 

[allgripnoslip]

I remember something about this thread coming up and a few people commented that if you want to do that you have to run 4 extra injectors because the fuel wont flow into each cylinder proportionately, like other cylinders will recieve more fuel than other and result in inconsistencies. I do believe one person has successfully ran a dual fuel rail setup however, but IMO it seems cheaper and easier to just buy larger injectors. IF you really want to get your knock down, try looking at some water injection options, coolingmist.com is one of the makers I know off hand... Good Luck

 

[92awddsm]

I suggest you get on some rx-7 forums to research this further. They have been running aux injectors in the rotory motors for years and I am sure they would be more helpful on the subject. And if you do some more searching, you will find that greddy makes a control system for aux injectors.

 

[Defiant]

I suggest you get on some rx-7 forums to research this further. They have been running aux injectors in the rotory motors for years

Rotaries aren't motors. They're voodoo.

 

[Erok]

if you research the automotive industries youll understand why all automotive engineers moved from tbi/spi systems like the gm/ford models to the multi port injectors, first off you wont get the same flow to each cylinder, 4=rich 3 = good 2= lean 1= really lean
i feel sorry for your #1 cylinder if you do try to control fuel from the throttle body, i mean the reason they dont put it in the throttle body is cause the fuel doesnt atomize like the car is ment to that is why your injectors are put close to your intake valves in your head,
my opinion is just upgrade injectors, it is much safer to keep the injectors where they are, and just the 4 of them, i mean running extra injectors, u might as well just put it on the bottle, it would ###### be safer, just be carful bud, sounds like a bad idea for your engine

 

[Omega]

http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/SUPERFUELER_1.html

 

[polarmoment]

if you want to run staged injection on the stock ECU (i'm assuming you have an EPROM ECU here), it's actually fairly simple. put the extra 4 injectors on the intake runners, then build 4 new injector drivers for each to tap into the stock wires (google "darlington pair") and use a relay/pressure switch to supply them with 12V at a specified boost pressure.

then, in your ECU, use an SST27F512 chip and load one stock map into it, and one map with a modified fuel curve for whatever total injector size you're running (say 450+450=900). then, install a pull-up resistor between pins 1 and 28 with pin 1 bent up (NOT installed in the socket). this changes the address that the ECU looks up information at, effectively switching between maps.

set up the relay/pressure switch to apply 12V to the injector drivers and at the same time apply ground to pin 1 of the chip. this will seamlessly (assuming the rest of the code is the same between the two maps) switch between single stock injection maps and 2 stage injection maps at whatever boost level you choose, and allow the car to idle/cruise completely stock. you can then use an AFC to tune.

and as others have said before, under no circumstances should you try to run your additional injectors off the ECU directly. this will destroy your ECU. you have to use a darlington pair of transistors to drive the new injectors, and make damn sure you heatsink them.

i don't think it's a bad idea at all, but you may want to do some research on the subject.

 

[CyberEye]

Do you plan on returning your friends dsmlink after your done tuning your car? If that's the case, don't bother. If you adjust the fuel injectors using the DSMlink, then return it to your friends car, you'll be right back where you started.

 

[thegreatms]

it's actually fairly simple.

put the extra 4 injectors on the intake runners, then build 4 new injector drivers for each to tap into the stock wires (google "darlington pair") and use a relay/pressure switch to supply them with 12V at a specified boost pressure.
then, in your ECU, use an SST27F512 chip and load one stock map into it, and one map with a modified fuel curve for whatever total injector size you're running (say 450+450=900). then, install a pull-up resistor between pins 1 and 28 with pin 1 bent up (NOT installed in the socket). this changes the address that the ECU looks up information at, effectively switching between maps.

set up the relay/pressure switch to apply 12V to the injector drivers and at the same time apply ground to pin 1 of the chip. this will seamlessly (assuming the rest of the code is the same between the two maps) switch between single stock injection maps and 2 stage injection maps at whatever boost level you choose, and allow the car to idle/cruise completely stock. you can then use an AFC to tune.

yes, that sound really simple...

 

[Stapl3]

Do you plan on returning your friends dsmlink after your done tuning your car? If that's the case, don't bother. If you adjust the fuel injectors using the DSMlink, then return it to your friends car, you'll be right back where you started.

Someone caught it.

This is dumb, why bother. It's been done in the past and has been found to be a poor mod. Just get larger injectors. What gigantic turbo setup will you be running that requires more than 4 injectors?

 

[polarmoment]

yes, that sound really simple...

i dunno, for me it's far less complicated than changing a timing belt, and that's really not all that complicated in itself. tuning the stock ECU is only difficult if you're not willing to learn. otherwise it's cake.

 

[suicidal2af]

Someone caught it.

This is dumb, why bother. It's been done in the past and has been found to be a poor mod. Just get larger injectors. What gigantic turbo setup will you be running that requires more than 4 injectors?

Why bother?

Finer fuel control, or one. Stock-like idle, for two. It gives you extra fuel when, and only when, you need it.

8 450's will give you an effective flow of 900cc -- but when you're off-boost, you'll retain gas mileage and drivability of 4 450's. As far as controlling them?

Simple. AEM EMS won't have a bit of trouble.

 

[GPTourer]

I would like to run 20psi is this possible?

Why all the extra work and the money just to run 20psi? On a T25? Good luck. Just get 550's and a chip and/or SAFC and be done.

 

[Stapl3]

Finer fuel control, or one.

The fuel will go with the airflow. We already know the air isn't evenly distributed. Sounds like a tuning nightmare to me.

8 450's will give you an effective flow of 900cc -- but when you're off-boost, you'll retain gas mileage and drivability of 4 450's.

Dsmlink controls 900cc injectors like stock.

Simple. AEM EMS won't have a bit of trouble

He's on tuners asking about injectors in a throttle body to shoot for a specific PSI level on a God knows what turbo. He's not going to know what to do with AEM.

 

[suicidal2af]

I'm not advocating extra injectors at the TB.

I'm talking in the runners...preferably pointed upstream for better atomization.

The advantages of a dual injector system vs one big set of injectors has been well established in the motorsports world; particularly due to the disadvantages running obscene dead time and the better atomization of fuel from a smaller injector. There's a plethora of information available online on this topic.

 

[Stapl3]

I'm not advocating extra injectors at the TB.

I'm talking in the runners...preferably pointed upstream for better atomization.

going to try to use the throttle body injectors,i don't think they won't bolt up , but my machine shop will drill my spare manifold for the 2 extra injectors right after the throttle body.

So what turbo setup are you using that needs more than 4 injectors?

 

[1gfromND]

Why bother?

Finer fuel control, or one. Stock-like idle, for two. It gives you extra fuel when, and only when, you need it.

8 450's will give you an effective flow of 900cc -- but when you're off-boost, you'll retain gas mileage and drivability of 4 450's. As far as controlling them?

Simple. AEM EMS won't have a bit of trouble.

I totally agree....a little bit of work enginuity never hurted anybody right? I see the BENEFIT over the hassle,work,bug..blablabla. "If you build it they will come". Sam

 

[suicidal2af]

So what turbo setup are you using that needs more than 4 injectors?

Think you're confusing me with the OP.

Fact is, I'm only saying that running staged injectors is more beneficial than massive injectors in a street-driven car given the ability to fully control them.

 

[Mackzero]

Let's be realistic here.... He could get some 550s or 650s for probably $150 used. Have a chip made for $80. Get a fuel pump for $100 and be DONE. $330 plus a very small amount of labor just seems like the right thing to do in this case.

IF you do decided to go ahead with this, which you SHOULD NOT, then good luck to you because you are going to need it.

 

[Omega]

Better gas mileage? Assuming you have the duty cycle and tuning corrected, a large injector will behave close enough to a small injector that you will never know the difference. Not to mention a possible lean condition before the second set kick in.

The add-on injector idea is generally used when the OEM system doesn't have the capacity to control vast amounts of fuel, with no other options. We have the luxary of an AFC (I strongly recomend a ECU chip too), DSMLink, and for the not so daily drivers, AEM.

The superfueler I posted was picking up populatity with the F-body crowd until someone hacked the '730 ECU. Now there are a LOT of people running OEM ECU's that have been reprogramed compared to DFI, Megasquirt and so on.

Not that the additional injectors can't be done.. infact I think it's pretty cool. For the money and ease of installation (and tuning) bigger injectors and the other fuel control options are better. Just my 2 cents