Too much fuel

[onefast2gdsm]

I'm working on my buddy's 1g. 93 Tsi awd, automatic with 390cc injectors and a 14b turbo. Fresh 7 bolt. Car is fouling plugs and drowning the cylinders in fuel.

So far I have replaced

Cas
Transistor pack
Coil pack
Replaced maf with 2g maf
Swapped fuel rails (had 2g in)
Injectors (had 450cc in)
Fuel pressure regulator (had 2g in)
Spark plugs
Coolant temp sensors

Timing is dead on (triple checked) ignition timing is on.

I can get the car to run if I blow off the spark plugs with an air hose, once car gets slightly warm, I hit the throttle and it dies, either that or I shut it off and try to start it.again and it just cranks and spark plugs are fouled. What regulates the amount of fuel going into the motor? I'm at a loss here..

 

[fourgsixthree33]

We have no major vacuum leaks. The TB is leaking slightly and for some reason my boost gauge is not showing any vacuum at all. I am not sure if it is my boost gauge that is messed up, the line, or what but the stock boost gauge does show vacuum. I have the boost gauge line ran to the P port on the TB. Could just be the line on the gauge end.

My coolant temp sensor was disconnected a long time ago when the car ran before it blew up. I fixed a leak on the thermo housing to the head and when taking the plugs off the coolant temp sensors, the plugs broke. So, I wired them up with female wire crimpers. I did drive the car for a day or two with the plugs disconnected. It ran like crap, but it did run.

The unidentified plugs, the plug in the first pic is under the battery, near the firewall, way down, like I said. The second plug is pretty much under the MAF. It will not reach the thermo housing. It is not the A/C temp sensor on the water neck because I did away with that plug when I deleted the A/C a long time ago.

The turbo was on maybe a week. It did not have any shaft play when we assembled it. We actually swapped the compressor housing with the one I had in it originally, so we have it apart and it was fine until the other night. It did sit for awhile though.

This car has caused so many problems. I am now broke, have spend over 2K on this car since January, and pretty much was the cause to an ended relationship as of yesterday.

The MAF was also making a very loud sucking noise the other night too. It did not do this the night the car ran good. What would this mean?

Have not checked the knock sensor, but it was replaced with a known good one when we assembled the engine. I still wouldn't see a bad knock sensor causing a gallon of gas to dump into the rail on startup.

Hell, it may not even be getting too much fuel. Maybe the fuel just isn't burning. Poor spark, no air, who knows. Maybe that MAF took a crap too? When we took the return line off and used a longer hose to drain into a gas can, we had all 4 injector clips off and started the car. No lie, the car ran for at least 20 seconds! And dumped a ton of fuel into the gas can on top of that.

This might be a long shot but we had to rewire my injector clips because the wires were junk. Does it matter which wires go together? We put the thick wire with the thick wire, and thin wire with thin wire. Chris, could probably get pics. Also, whenever we had to rewire something, we ALWAYS solder it.

I wish you could all spend an hour with us in the garage and see physically what is going on. To get the car to start, we either have to blow dry the plugs off, or unplug all the injectors, crank it for a bit, plug injectors back in, and try. If it doesn't start, we keep doing this until it does. When we do get the car started, it will idle fine at about 1200RPM and will stay running for as long as you would like. But if you give it throttle, it will rev up and then stall out as the RPMM's are coming down. Then it will not start back up unless we do our little injector clip trick.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

It may seem like a longshot but do you have another crank sensor that you can swap out with? I had a bad problem with a brand new crank sensor. It didn't cause this same scenario but something kinda like it. If you have a 7 bolt engine (as I have more experience with 7 bolts than six) replacement of the crank sensor does not require removal of the timing belt and can be switched in about 30 min maybe less depends on how good you are at it. But it may be your crank sensor. Worst case scenario if it don't work is you return the part and get your money back. But I would try at least two before ruling it out. As when I rebuilt mine the (bad) new one caused me over a month of trouble.
Though in my defense it was at a friends shop for all but a few days before getting fixed. Funny I kept bring them parts off my other turbo car trying to get it running and nothing ever did anything and finally i get it towed to my work shop and I spent one night looking at it with no luck. Had that saturday off and came in at nine that morning and it was fixed by 2:30 the next morning. The guy where my car was at first had been working on cars since he was younger than me and I've have only been working on cars for maybe three years now and i fix the dang thing in less than 48 hours over his month and a half.

 

[ramsack]

The coolant temp. sensor doesn't open and close. The engine won't flood if it's bad or not hooked up.

Have you checked your cam timing?

Yes, the injector polarity matters.

 

[fourgsixthree33]

1G's do not use the crankshaft position sensor like the 2G 7 bolts. Just the cam angle sensor. I have a 2G 7 bolt in it (custom mounts) but since I have a 1G, I don't use it as the wiring harness and ECU are different.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

Ok, it sounds to me like someone really messed up wiring now that we are getting more details. Your injectors have to be wired correctly in order to get the pulse when its supposed to be there in order to spark. You may have every injector out of sequence and thus the fuel has a chance to pool before its ignited. Not to mention, are all of the wires wired correctly via the ECU? How exactly did you rewire that? I mean, your ECU simply grounds out each injector to pulse it, and the power is a constant.

Again, the plug nearly directly under the MAF is the trans solenoid. it plugs directly into the top of the shift solenoid which is located directly next to the trans mount. You can see that in the picture I posted.

My next question is, if you have a MT ECU and an auto setup, how are you going to control the trans? An auto ecu has to communicate with the TCU in order for it to shift properly. A MT ecu does not have that communication capability. You will need a standalone transmission controller for that.

Sounds to me like you have a ton of money invested and your taking wild shots in the dark here. This is a complete cluster eff of parts. you have a 1g car, a bunch of 2g parts, injectors that are WAY to big for the 390cc stock injector map of the 1g, no logging at all, no afpr, and you seem to be creating more and more issues. I mean no disrespect by this, but you should really take a step back, take a break from it, and think logically here. I can understand your frustration with the money into the car and it not running, however trying to rush it will make it worse. I honestly wish i could be there too, but im about 700miles away so i will do what I can from here.

First things first, pull the battery and remove the ECU. From there, test the injector wires with a DMM. Make sure each injector is connected to the correct output on the ECU. If not, FIX IT. From there, get yourself an AFPR or atleast a way to see what your fuel pressure is. Then if you have the fuel pump rewire done already, jump the relay and prime the system to check fuel pressure. This will tell you if the fuel pressure is to high and thus the cause of your flooding condition. If that checks out, move from there to the TPS. Get a chiltons and do a test according to their method to verify both WOT and closed/idle. If your ECU reads the wrong throttle position it will dump a ton of fuel to compensate. Similar to putting your foot on the throttle of a fuel injected car and starting it. You will flood that B nearly every time. Start with those 3 tests and get back to us and let us know if the injectors were wired correctly to the correct point on the ECU too.

I know how annoying all this can be, so take it step by step so you can eliminate possible causes along the way. Because if your wired correctly, your fuel pressure is good and your TPS is accurate, it should fire every time. A MAF would not keep you from starting. It would just idle like crap and stall when u try to apply throttle. So thats not the problem. At least not the only problem. If I get back home today I will try and get more pix around my engine bay to try and explain those 2 plugs better too.

 

[ramsack]

The ECU and TCU share no information. That's not it.

The difference between a 390 and 450 should not be that drastic as to cause it to not start. That's not it, although the OP needs to get the FPR correct to what injectors he's running. ECU type should not matter.

Having the injector wires reversed won't hold them open and flood the engine. That's not it.

Check cam timing. You've mentioned at least twice about how there is an outrush of air through the induction system. This happens when the intake cam isn't timed right. If you can't build compression at the right time, the gas isn't going to ignite, there will be no airflow through the engine, and it will flood.

A fuel injected car will not flood if you are at WOT when starting it. Cars have a special starting map, injection sequence, and ignition sequence, and ECUs ignore all sensor input during that time.

Once you get it started, change your oil. It's probably full of gas.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

^^^ He is right fuel injectors I believe are actually cut off at wide open throttle during cranking. A bad tps usually only causes a surging problem never seen one flood a car. And as he just said until car is started and 02s are heated up the car runs in open loop on set fuel tables. Do a compression test to make sure valve timing is correct. I don't see it being your injector wiring either as they are like a one speed fan if your reverse polarity the fan simply goes backward. If you reverse injector polarity it will still open and and close when grounded out. Doesn't matter which injector prong gets grounded. I have tested that theory. Really just go over all basics again Timing, compression, vacuum lines routed correctly. As for your gauge not reading vacuum I don't think it should be on the P port. In the car i wrecked mine was hooked in with the fpr solenoid vacuum line.

I might actually be up there sometime soon. I am not sure yet though. Buying a set of rims and going up there depends on the shipping cost.

 

[fourgsixthree33]

Ok, it sounds to me like someone really messed up wiring now that we are getting more details. Your injectors have to be wired correctly in order to get the pulse when its supposed to be there in order to spark. You may have every injector out of sequence and thus the fuel has a chance to pool before its ignited. Not to mention, are all of the wires wired correctly via the ECU? How exactly did you rewire that? I mean, your ECU simply grounds out each injector to pulse it, and the power is a constant.

Again, the plug nearly directly under the MAF is the trans solenoid. it plugs directly into the top of the shift solenoid which is located directly next to the trans mount. You can see that in the picture I posted.

My next question is, if you have a MT ECU and an auto setup, how are you going to control the trans? An auto ecu has to communicate with the TCU in order for it to shift properly. A MT ecu does not have that communication capability. You will need a standalone transmission controller for that.

Sounds to me like you have a ton of money invested and your taking wild shots in the dark here. This is a complete cluster eff of parts. you have a 1g car, a bunch of 2g parts, injectors that are WAY to big for the 390cc stock injector map of the 1g, no logging at all, no afpr, and you seem to be creating more and more issues. I mean no disrespect by this, but you should really take a step back, take a break from it, and think logically here. I can understand your frustration with the money into the car and it not running, however trying to rush it will make it worse. I honestly wish i could be there too, but im about 700miles away so i will do what I can from here.

First things first, pull the battery and remove the ECU. From there, test the injector wires with a DMM. Make sure each injector is connected to the correct output on the ECU. If not, FIX IT. From there, get yourself an AFPR or atleast a way to see what your fuel pressure is. Then if you have the fuel pump rewire done already, jump the relay and prime the system to check fuel pressure. This will tell you if the fuel pressure is to high and thus the cause of your flooding condition. If that checks out, move from there to the TPS. Get a chiltons and do a test according to their method to verify both WOT and closed/idle. If your ECU reads the wrong throttle position it will dump a ton of fuel to compensate. Similar to putting your foot on the throttle of a fuel injected car and starting it. You will flood that B nearly every time. Start with those 3 tests and get back to us and let us know if the injectors were wired correctly to the correct point on the ECU too.

I know how annoying all this can be, so take it step by step so you can eliminate possible causes along the way. Because if your wired correctly, your fuel pressure is good and your TPS is accurate, it should fire every time. A MAF would not keep you from starting. It would just idle like crap and stall when u try to apply throttle. So thats not the problem. At least not the only problem. If I get back home today I will try and get more pix around my engine bay to try and explain those 2 plugs better too.

I have an auto trans AND an auto ECU. Thanks for your input. Every bit helps. I am just thrilled that I have more than 2 replies on a thread.

The ECU and TCU share no information. That's not it.

The difference between a 390 and 450 should not be that drastic as to cause it to not start. That's not it, although the OP needs to get the FPR correct to what injectors he's running. ECU type should not matter.

Having the injector wires reversed won't hold them open and flood the engine. That's not it.

Check cam timing. You've mentioned at least twice about how there is an outrush of air through the induction system. This happens when the intake cam isn't timed right. If you can't build compression at the right time, the gas isn't going to ignite, there will be no airflow through the engine, and it will flood.

A fuel injected car will not flood if you are at WOT when starting it. Cars have a special starting map, injection sequence, and ignition sequence, and ECUs ignore all sensor input during that time.

Once you get it started, change your oil. It's probably full of gas.

That makes a lot of sense. We will definitely have to check the mechanical timing again. We have checked it several times to make sure it was accurate but it has been a while.

Now the question is, what if the timing checks out perfect? Why would the MAF be making that sound?

I did a oil change when we last worked on the car. It obviously is going to have a lot of gas in the oil. The oil I drained had tons of gas in it.

^^^ He is right fuel injectors I believe are actually cut off at wide open throttle during cranking. A bad tps usually only causes a surging problem never seen one flood a car. And as he just said until car is started and 02s are heated up the car runs in open loop on set fuel tables. Do a compression test to make sure valve timing is correct. I don't see it being your injector wiring either as they are like a one speed fan if your reverse polarity the fan simply goes backward. If you reverse injector polarity it will still open and and close when grounded out. Doesn't matter which injector prong gets grounded. I have tested that theory. Really just go over all basics again Timing, compression, vacuum lines routed correctly. As for your gauge not reading vacuum I don't think it should be on the P port. In the car i wrecked mine was hooked in with the fpr solenoid vacuum line.

I might actually be up there sometime soon. I am not sure yet though. Buying a set of rims and going up there depends on the shipping cost.

I originally had my boost source for my gauge at the FPS like VFAQ says. It is the recommended way. My friend has his tapped into his P port so he said I should do the same and also remove the FPS. Should I keep the FPS? Btw, we did try putting the FPS in to see if there were any changes and there was not. Same issues.

Again, I would like to thank everyone for all the replies. I REALLY appreciate it. It means a lot and I hope you all keep checking back.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Honestly I don't see your need to remove the fps. Unless you actually have a reason to do so and a reason that actually improves your cars performance I would say leave it in. And hook your gauge back up as recommended for same reason. If thats the recommended way and hooking it up different doesn't give you any kind of gain its best to not change it. AS for that sound its hard to say though incorrect timing can cause that I have heard out of my car when I had idling problems. It would sound that way at real low rpms and just before it would cut off. But my timing is perfect I know as I drive my car everyday. Trying to think of more things to help

 

[CrawlinZX14]

I had an 89 gsx years back and the maf went out. It would idle like it was out of breath and surge like crazy then when I shut it off or it stalled it sounded like it exhaled out the Intake. But nothing with richness like that. A bad fpr has done it, a bad tps and a bad ecu have all been problems that have flooded me like that. Is your ecu a eprom? If so have you verified the chip set for it to make sure its the correct chip?

Has this vehicle ever ran correctly since you purchased it?

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

 

[fourgsixthree33]

Honestly I don't see your need to remove the fps. Unless you actually have a reason to do so and a reason that actually improves your cars performance I would say leave it in. And hook your gauge back up as recommended for same reason. If thats the recommended way and hooking it up different doesn't give you any kind of gain its best to not change it. AS for that sound its hard to say though incorrect timing can cause that I have heard out of my car when I had idling problems. It would sound that way at real low rpms and just before it would cut off. But my timing is perfect I know as I drive my car everyday. Trying to think of more things to help

Guess we will start by verifying we have correct timing again. Sounds like that would be a good place to start.

I had an 89 gsx years back and the maf went out. It would idle like it was out of breath and surge like crazy then when I shut it off or it stalled it sounded like it exhaled out the Intake. But nothing with richness like that. A bad fpr has done it, a bad tps and a bad ecu have all been problems that have flooded me like that. Is your ecu a eprom? If so have you verified the chip set for it to make sure its the correct chip?

Has this vehicle ever ran correctly since you purchased it?

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

The night the car ran without the fuel issue, the MAF did not make this noise. It started making the noise the night we DID have the fuel issue.

ECU is EPROM. Not sure what you mean about it having the correct chip but the car has ran since I purchased it.

I bought the car on November 11th of 2010. Ended up dating and moving in with the girl I bought it from. Ran great up until the day I spun the rod bearing which was on June 3rd of 2011. So, it ran for 7 months in my possession.

 

[ramsack]

What he meant about the EPROM chip only applies if you've had it socketed. Are you on the stock fuel pump?

 

[fourgsixthree33]

Yep stock fuel pump and stock wiring.

 

[yellow90tsi]

I am not doubting anyones skills here and I am far from an expert.

My first plan of attack would be to start over. I dont care if it comes down to unplugging all of the wires and doing them one by one.

You stated that you wired and soldered in a 2g maf and the cas plug. Check them. We make mistakes. This has to be a really minor problem for the most part. Is this a rebuilt motor or a used one?

I will be talking with my buddy later to see what ECUs we have around and other parts. I will get back to you.

 

[NHerron]

Anyone know if they got this figured out?