2G Suspension Update Questions

[XiKeiyaZI]

Alright everyone, I'm in need of some education. The time has come for me to go over and update the worn out bits of my suspension and considering that I know next to nothing when it comes to suspension I am turning to the experienced members here who know a thing or two about this subject.

I am going to be replacing both lower control arms on both sides at the front of the vehicle. The rear of the vehicle is relatively new and everything checks out. Now with details on the front, both outer tie rid ends look good and no torn boots anywhere related to them. Passenger side has no torn boots outside of the upper ball joint (We'll get to this further on) and the driver side has a single torn boot on the rear lower lateral arm.

Now, my issue isn't replacing the lower lateral arms, my issue lies in the upper ball joints. when I picked the car up the tires were worn viciously on the inside as if the tops of the tires were angled inwards. The vehicle has Ingalls Camber Kits installed in place of the stock upper ball joints. Both of them seem to be fine and check out but the boots are split wide open and there's no telling how much debris has made it inside of them. I've done the pricing, but before I buy them I'm worried if their installation was actually the cause of the improper wear pattern on the wheels.

I've also discovered that they make a - Camber and a + camber version of the kits? With that being true, if it is, how would someone know which they need? Also will any future wheel/tire specs effect this? I am currently running on stock 2G wheels which are, of course, a bit smaller than I want and will be moving to 17's in the near future.

So what's the input here? Should I wait for the new wheels/tires? Should I simply replace the Ingalls with stock upper ball joints? Can I simply clean the ball joints, replace the boots, and repack them? Also how hard is the replacement of said ball joints? This will be my first upper ball joint replacement and am just trying what will be best for the vehicle.

Specs are up to date on my profile. Any input is appreciated.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I ran across some information stating that the Ball Joints themselves on the Ingalls kits are replaceable? Is this true?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Alright everyone, I'm in need of some education. The time has come for me to go over and update the worn out bits of my suspension and considering that I know next to nothing when it comes to suspension I am turning to the experienced members here who know a thing or two about this subject.

I am going to be replacing both lower control arms on both sides at the front of the vehicle. The rear of the vehicle is relatively new and everything checks out. Now with details on the front, both outer tie rid ends look good and no torn boots anywhere related to them. Passenger side has no torn boots outside of the upper ball joint (We'll get to this further on) and the driver side has a single torn boot on the rear lower lateral arm.

Now, my issue isn't replacing the lower lateral arms, my issue lies in the upper ball joints. when I picked the car up the tires were worn viciously on the inside as if the tops of the tires were angled inwards. The vehicle has Ingalls Camber Kits installed in place of the stock upper ball joints. Both of them seem to be fine and check out but the boots are split wide open and there's no telling how much debris has made it inside of them. I've done the pricing, but before I buy them I'm worried if their installation was actually the cause of the improper wear pattern on the wheels.

I've also discovered that they make a - Camber and a + camber version of the kits? With that being true, if it is, how would someone know which they need? Also will any future wheel/tire specs effect this? I am currently running on stock 2G wheels which are, of course, a bit smaller than I want and will be moving to 17's in the near future.

So what's the input here? Should I wait for the new wheels/tires? Should I simply replace the Ingalls with stock upper ball joints? Can I simply clean the ball joints, replace the boots, and repack them? Also how hard is the replacement of said ball joints? This will be my first upper ball joint replacement and am just trying what will be best for the vehicle.

Specs are up to date on my profile. Any input is appreciated.

Just a few bits before we proceed, and this is for completeness, I'd rather not miss anything.

This little graphic adequately, however crude, describes some of the relationships and terminology commonly used when discussing suspension.

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From my personal perspective, it's best to look at it from a current alignment sheet. After reading the sheet a guy can get an idea of where the alignment is now and where he wants it to be. Information like that can help you determine what type, if any, aftermarket adjustment is required.

What are the goals for the car? If it's serious AutoX then you'll want to be able to hit -3* or more[negative] camber in the front if you so desire. This means that a device that adds positive camber back into the system will likely be undesirable. If you had a FWD drag car though and your current alignment had you at -2.6* camber you might be interested in a device that adds positive [removes negative] camber so that you have a greater contact patch for launching and other straight line activities.

As far as the parts are concerned, it's likely it wasn't the camber kit that caused excessive tire wear but rather the alignment itself - too much toe.
Toe is expressed as a negative value when discussing toe-out and a positive value when discussing toe-in.
Camber[negative] is not normally associated with excessive wear, but it often gets the blame. Picture this; you're riding along with a bunch of [negative]camber and your wear down your tires. What are you going to blame? The camber is likely immediately noticeable to the eye, but is the toe? Toe can't really be eyeballed so it's really easy to think you have this perfectly straight alignment, eat through your tires and blame the camber.

The truth is that camber exacerbates the wear accompanied by excessive toe but is not a root cause of excessive wear in itself. Toe out can be a nifty thing when you want to be agile but it will absolutely eat the tires alive. Toe-in is more forgiving and much less "darty". With a neutral toe setting camber should exhibit very little wear.

If I were you, I would do as much as possible to correct the problems before getting new tires. It's nice to find out you have excessive toe on the old one's before you go for a romp on the new ones. I've not personally replaced the upper balljoints on the stock arms, especially since I don't run stock arms. From what I've seen over the years I'm not sure it's truly worth it. I guess it all depends on what the market wants for new upper a-arms.
Do not try to service the joint itself, just replace the joint or the arm itself.

Regarding the ingalls/replaceable balljoint, yes, the ball joint is replaceable in the sense that you can go out and buy a new one($$$) if the boot splits and the joint is contaminated. They offer 3 types that I'm aware of. A ball joint kind, and 2 anchor types. One being more "Exxtreme" than the other.

If I were to recommend a variety it would be the SPC eccentric bolts.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Absolutely beyond informational. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the angles of the issue and really opening my eyes to information that I haven't sat down and gathered before. I've read it a few times now and think that I have a good grasp of what's going on as far as wear and alignment issues.

Now with the vehicle I know for a fact that I have at least the lower lateral control arm (curved) to replace on the driver side front, however, the upper ball joints I'm still kind of curious on how I should go about it. I figure it's going to be a pain to replace those but then again I have no idea and haven't looked to see if there are any tutorial over it. Now you stated that the ball joints in the Ingalls kits can be replaced and followed up with suggestions for bolts - but is there a guide over -how- to replace them and if it's cheaper/easier to do that opposed to just dropping $170+ to buy new ones?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

By the sounds of it, the arm that requires replacement is not the lateral arm but what is referred to as the compression arm (curved). It's also exorbitantly priced in comparison to the lateral arm, unfortunately.

The SPC eccentric kit is ~$60.00. New Moog upper a-arms are about $100.00/pair.

Ingalls balljoints can be had for ~$150/pair. Plus dicking around with getting the old one's out and the new ones in. Shouldn't be terribly difficult though and I'm sure they come with instructions but we have this available: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...4783-2g-upper-ball-joint-change-35-bucks.html

Another way to do this is to scrap the kit altogether and just replace the joints in the arms you have. The chances are good that you would be satisfied with the camber available to you. It depends on your goals. Every car is different but, in my case, when I first lowered on prokits I ended up with -1.3* camber on the left and -1.7* camber on the right. Go ahead and swap some washers around in the rear for something like -0.75* and you'd be sitting pretty good. Everyone loves adjustability but this would be an inexpensive and acceptable solution. Essentially, you'd just be looking at the cost of a compression arm and a pair of those $35 federal mogul ball joints in the article.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Well that guides is pretty informational in itself, but damn me if I don't have to press things out of things. I never have luck with that.

So to maintain the Ingalls, I need to completely replace them. -scratches head- I don't suppose I'm picking up on if the ones that I have are repairable or not without pressing them out. Otherwise I could simply remove my upper arms, press the Ingalls out, and install stock ball joints? I'm pretty dense when it comes to suspension work.

Also the link on that website to the style of ball joints they used no longer works.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

So to maintain the Ingalls, I need to completely replace them.

Yes.

I don't suppose I'm picking up on if the ones that I have are repairable or not without pressing them out. Otherwise I could simply remove my upper arms, press the Ingalls out, and install stock ball joints?

The balljoints are not serviceable. They must be replaced which means pressed out.

You will be buying new arms or pressing out/in new balljoints, aftermarket or otherwise.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Gotchya. Bright and clear.

Just for reference this is the condition of both upper ball joints. Would you think that simply purchasing new upper control arms (Both together brand new actually being rather cheap) and using the stock Ball Joints would cause a huge difference in drivability? I won't really be doing aggressive Auto-X or anything of that sort beside some straight-line fun.

Edit : It won't allow me to upload a picture. Glorious.

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[PieEyedPiper]

Gotchya. Bright and clear.

Just for reference this is the condition of both upper ball joints. Would you think that simply purchasing new upper control arms (Both together brand new actually being rather cheap) and using the stock Ball Joints would cause a huge difference in drivability?

Nah.

I won't really be doing aggressive Auto-X or anything of that sort beside some straight-line fun.

Less camber generally caters better to straight-line activities so this sounds like a fine road to take.

Besides, this way you get the car fixed with good parts for only a little money. If, in the future, you require some adjustability just remember that the eccentric bolts are only around $60.00.
I still have a brand new box sitting on the shelf.