Suspension Set-up Question

[miamieclipse]

Hows this for a suspension set-up? I also have a question

H & R Springs
KYB GR-2 Shocks
Front Strut Bar
Rear Strut Bar
Rear Sway bar kit

I have seen lower tie bars? What is that and should i get those instead/added on to suspension mods?
I am thinking of not getting the front sway bar kit since my dsm is front wheel drive it would even it out, is this true or am i a dumbass?

 

[miamieclipse]

No one has a suggestion?????

 

[jtmcinder]

I agree about only upgrading the rear swaybar on a wrong-wheel drive.

As to lower tie bars: a 2G only needs a front one and the only good one is that from RoadRace Engineering.

As to the rest of the set-up, I'd save up for Koni Sports and not get the KYBs. Otherwise, it's an OK budget set-up.

- Jtoby

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I agree about only upgrading the rear swaybar on a wrong-wheel drive.

Its always nice to see an AWD that thinks like a Honda driver. Do you have to insult even DSM owners now? Get a life.

As for the suspension, a front sway bar will help with turn-in and body roll, so do get both. H&R is a quality company, and the KYBs are about factory in quality. It should be a good daily driver combo. Nice to see someone who isn't just concerned about going fast in a straight line.
EDIT:
Cheap shot removed. My apologies to Jtoby.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Groomz
jtmcinder, do you live your life a quarter mile at a time?

No. I've yet to go to a drag strip in my DSM.

Back to the point: the main purpose of swaybars is to control where weight transfer takes place ... front vs. rear. To get a wrong-wheel drive car to turn AND accelerate out of the turn, you need to move a large amount of weight transfer from the front to the rear. This is most-easily done by stiffening the rear sway bar (and leaving the front alone).

- Jtoby

ps. front-wheel drive is just as much of a handicap when autoXing and road-racing as it is when drag-racing, which is why many people call it wrong-wheel drive ... this is not a slam on the person driving the car (since the best autoXer alive usually drives a wrong-wheel-drive car) ... it is meant as a warning about the car's upper limits. I'm sorry if anyone in such a car thought I was insulting the driver.

 

[miamieclipse]

im gonna go with only a rear sway bar kit, thank you both.

For brakes i dont wnat to go big:
im gonna do the rear disc brake conversion
brembo front replacemnet rotors
Hawk Brake pads,

what do u think?

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by jtmcinder


Back to the point: the main purpose of swaybars is to control where weight transfer takes place ... front vs. rear. To get a wrong-wheel drive car to turn AND accelerate out of the turn, you need to move a large amount of weight transfer from the front to the rear. This is most-easily done by stiffening the rear sway bar (and leaving the front alone).

-

A larger rear sway-bar is not going to go very far in changing the fact that wrong-wheel drive cars have 60+% of the weight on the front wheels. You'll wind up with a car that handles very poorly. This is just from experience though. I had a Miata that I autoXed for a while before I switch to my DSM.

Edit: Personnal attack removed. Sorry for the crap, Jtoby.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Groomz
A larger rear sway-bar is not going to go very far in changing the fact that wrong-wheel drive cars have 60+% of the weight on the front wheels. You'll wind up with a car that handles very poorly. This is just from experience though. I had a Miata that I autoXed for a while before I switch to my DSM. Keep shooting tiger, someday there won't be blanks in your gun.

Edit: ditto.

Swaybars don't move weight. They move where weight transfer happens. That is their role.

If you don't understand what weight transfer is or why it affects handling, and can't find the information using a search, feel free to ask for an explanation.

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

Hold on groomz. You attack JToby for saying WWD and then not more than 1 post later you say it.


Yes you want the rar of the car stiffer than the front. Why? To bring the rear around. If the front sways are too stiff, the car will contiue to push. If the rear is stiffer that the front, the front will turn and the rear end will come out faster. Get it?

But what if the front starts pushing and the rear is coming around? Adjust your tire pressure.

Back to the original question.

H & R Springs..................what rates?
KYB GR-2 Shocks............sucks, might as well be stock.
Front Strut Bar................what brand?
Rear Strut Bar.................what brand?
Rear Sway bar kit............what brand?

What exhaust are you running so you know what rear sway will fit? What tires? This is the most important part of the suspension?

 

[miamieclipse]

H & R Springs..................Not sure yet, i have to do some research
KYB GR-2 Shocks............You think, what would u reccomend?
Front Strut Bar................Alreadt installed
Rear Strut Bar.................Already installed
Rear Sway bar kit............either suspension techniques or Addco
Brembo Replacement Rotors
Hawk Brake Pads

Custom Cat-back system.

THanks

 

[jtmcinder]

H&R 2G springs have rates of 430/260, which gives you wheel rates of 215/208. This is by far the most rear-biased set of OTS springs of those that are available. This is why I suggest them over Prokits (which are only 330/160), for example.

- Jtoby

 

[miamieclipse]

ok so im going to go with the h&r springs, they seem to be a popular choice on this board. Do you have any info on the addco or suspension techniques sawy bar kit? What do u think of the brake set-up?

Thanks

 

[miamieclipse]

oh, will the h&r springs drop too low? I am going to go wit 17" rims n i am putting on a body kit and i am gonna still need it to get over speed bumps as its going to be a daily driver , ( is this possible)

 

[jtmcinder]

H&Rs drop you only enough to need rear camber kits, so it can't be too far, but I know little to nothing about body kits. As to swaybars for a 2G ... the only real choice is RM.

 

[miamieclipse]

when i got the car it was slammed, the wrong way tho the previous owner jus cut the springs. I put stock front springs that my friend gave me in the mean time while i get these new ones, but wouldnt the rear already have a camber kit, if so cant it be re-used?

 

[jtmcinder]

All rear camber kits that I know of can be reused. But I, of course, have no idea if your car has one. Look at the brackets that hold the upper A-arm to the chassis. If the backet is spaced away from the body, you have a Home Depot camber kit. If the bracket is adjustable, you have a fancy camber kit. If the bracket is flat to the body and there is adjuster, you don't have a camber kit.

Fronts are different, in that some camber kits involve the inboard end and some mess with the ball joint, but rear kits are pretty straight-forward.

- Jtoby

 

[miamieclipse]

well i would only have a rear one as the front was replaced with stock springs. What shocks do you think i should go for? Someone in this tread said KYB GR-2 arent that good. Do you happen to know anything about brakes? If so how is my suggested "light" upgrade?

What do u know about tires? I heard the Yokohama ES100s r good, real good. I am going to get 17s and im thinking either 205 or 215 z rated, what ya think?

Thanks in advance, Mike

 

[jtmcinder]

My favorite OTS shock for a 2G is the Koni Sport (yellow) due to the ratio of rebound to compression damping and the shortness of the body.

My favorite street tires for a 2G are 245/40/17 Kumho MXs on a 17x8 wheel with a +40mm offset. I like these because they have almost as much dry grip as a 225/45/17 Azenis, but are quieter and better in the wet. (These are my wet racing tires, in fact.) I'm not one of those people who runs R-compounds on the street.

I think that late 2G AWD brakes are fine for anything short of road racing. I believe that you can put the 2-pot fronts and 1-pot rears on your car, but I'm not sure. There should also be some deals available, since a lot of people upgrade even these brakes. For pads I like Axxis Metal Masters on the street (although they cannot take even the heat of moderate left-foot braking) and Porterfield R4-S for autoXing (although I'm currently running EBC Greens because I'm a turkey and tried to save a little money).

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

Its not necessary to dirty the threads. Thanks.

The H&R springs don't seem that bad for a kit. I am going to have to echo the Koni shocks. But if you are really crunched for money you can get away with Tokico Illuminas. RM makes very nice sway bars. I do believe this will give your car a better stance and handleing you are looking for.

Why do GR-2s bite? They are used as a factory replacement.

Brakes. Turned or new stockers with Porterfield R4-S pads. Perfect for the street.

Tires. I only run Khumo tires. Maybe some hoosiers this season . 215s seems so skinny for 17s. 225s. You are going to put on these parts and want to see how wwell it takes turns and your tires are going to break contact well before you suspension should allow it. Go one size wider at a minimum.

 

[Groomz]

Listen to Jtoby, or you'll get flamed.

 

[Groomz]

I am trying to say that with most weight on the front of the car, a front anti-sway bar upgrade is worthwhile. The rear anti-sway bar is also a very good thing to do to change how the car handles.

 

[jtmcinder]

I understood what you were saying. I just don't agree.

The car in question is FWD. The last thing that you want to do is thicken the front swaybar. If the front needs stiffening for some reason (e.g., the outside shock is hitting the bumpstop in hard corners), then use heavier springs. Don't thicken the swaybar.

Why? Because swaybars do two things in a corner: they "push down" on then outside wheel and they "lift up" on the inside wheel. And once the inside front on a FWD comes off the ground, you are toast. In fact, it doesn't even have to come off the ground. Grip is proportional to weight. When the inside front becomes "light," you can't power out of the corner.

Your advice might sound sensible - after all, you have to make changes to make the car handle better, right? - but, when you really think about it, what you're suggesting is not only a waste of money, but could lower performance.

Sweeping generalization time! There are a lot of people on this board that are pretty smart and, for some reason, think that handling issues are relatively straight-forward, such that intelligence is all you need. This just isn't true. It's a complicated mix of issues that you must learn, either by reading a lot of good texts or by conducting a lot of experiments on a variety of cars. Put another way: handling is a form of non-linear dynamics. And humans suck at predicting the behavior of non-linear systems (trust me on this one; it's what I do for a living). So, please, everyone, stop guessing about stuff. Or, if you can't go without posting, at least soften your posts to make it clear that you're guessing.

I wouldn't get into half as many spats on this board if the smart people who are winging it would just back it down a notch or two. I love posting. I love explaining things. I can even do it in non-obnoxious ways (and if you believe that, I have some real estate I'd like you to consider). But I will not sit back and let people guess incorrectly without getting in your face.

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

Oh yeah!

You smell like poo. Sorry, Just guessing.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by hoffman
You smell like poo. Sorry, Just guessing.

Good guess!

But so would you if you had a 6-week-old and the deal with your wife was that she does "input" and you do "output."

- Jtoby