Sell or Fix?

[Dauntless]

I lent my Talon to my son to drive over the winter (to give him a break from the rain on his motorcycle), and to make a long story short, he ran it out of oil. Now I am considering whether I should rebuild the engine or sell the car.

After towing the car back to my house, I added 4 quarts of oil to get it to the middle of the normal range, and started the engine. The bottom end sounds fine, but it seems like something let go up in the head. There is a loud clear tapping (not lifter tap or bottom end rod or main knock) which sounds like it's coming from just under the valve cover. The tapping "may" be occuring at half engine speed.

FWIW, when I bought this car 5 years ago the PO showed me receipts for a recent engine rebuild. The car ran fine, but one day my son told me that he'd noticed some extra wires and had traced them down to a nitrous control box mounted under the ash tray (which may explain the rebuild). Anyway, this same engine dropped an exhaust valve head a couple of years ago, and I ended up replacing the head.

So what do you think? Should I rebuild the engine or buy a JDM engine and put it back on the road? Or is a 1G FWD simply not worth the expense? I really like driving the car with its suspension upgrades, but is enough enough?

Thanks!

 

[I-luv-em-all]

The tapping or ticking is probably just lifters, because it ran out of oil so the lifters are also lacking oil which is makeing them tick, it will probably take a little while for the lifters to get enough oil in them again. But as far as the car does it burn any oil? How does it run?

 

[Dauntless]

Yes, I wondered about the lifters, but this sound is more like a hammer tap...very clear and quite loud from about 1000 RPMs up to the 2500 or so that I revved it. Also, when I replaced the head I installed new lifters, which rattled after start-up. This sound is quite distinct.

Funny you ask about burning oil. I was prepared to say that it's not burning any oil, based on a clean California smog check in October. In November I lent it to my son, who drives like the road racer he is -- high revs all the time, downshifting into corners at extreme revs, etc. His motto is 'drive it like you stole it'...

Anyway, to ensure I had oil up in the engine before starting it this afternoon, I pulled the plugs to crank over the engine. While they were out I glanced down the spark plug holes and was mildly shocked to see what appeared to be oil on top of the pistons. To tell the truth, though, I can't say whether it's really oil, or maybe gas mixed with soot. I had cranked a bit on the engine before looking down the bores, and since the engine didn't fire, there is the chance that what I saw isn't oil. Still, the oil is going somewhere, and its not dripping from the engine to any noticable degree. So, it's possible the rings are bad/broken.

 

[I-luv-em-all]

Well, if you really like the car and promise to not let your son drive it again, then just rebuild it. If you think you might be interested in a AWD, then you have more to consider.

 

[Dauntless]

Yeah...good advice about not letting him drive it again.

You raise a good point, though, and that is that I've always wanted an AWD. 1G AWD's have become so cheap that it almost doesn't make sense to rebuild this FWD Talon again. Most of what I have on this one would swap over (not the rear Gabs, though), or I could sell it to someone in the Bay Area who's got a good motor to drop in. A local salvage yard will pay me $500 for it 'as is', but if that's all it's worth, then I'd rather sell it to someone who would keep it on the street.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[Max-Eclipse]

my opinion, or what i would do, is get the $500 for it as is... its simple, and quick, then go get you an AWD. It's not worth the hassle of trying to find another buyer and all that, just get that $500... thats what i would do...

 

[I-luv-em-all]

I'd put up a local add in the paper or on the net somewhere, and and ask 750 firm or whatever you think. It would be a good car for a guy who has a spare motor, because you said that the car had some suspension upgrades, who knows you might get lucky. If that fails, take the 500, wipe your tears and move on to better things (AWD)

 

[Defiant]

Most likely balance shaft bearing damage (to start with).

If he were my son, I'd have him fixed and then sell him. Young eunichs can bring a pretty fair price in SF.

But there's reasons I'm not a parent. I'm just obscure.

 

[Dauntless]

He he he...I like the idea of selling him to recoup some of the expense! :laugh:

Yeah, I think I'll put an ad on Craigslist.com to see if I can get a few more bucks for it than the salvage yard will give me. Thanks guys!

 

[Dauntless]

Okay, curiosity got the better of me yesterday, so I pulled the head to see what was up. I was surprised to find that the head was fine (I feared it had dropped another valve), but then noticed this...

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This photo (sorry it's blurry) shows the number 3 piston at left and the number 2 at right. Notice that the right piston is positioned a quarter-inch or so down the bore. That's not good! :thumbdown

So I pulled the dust cover off the nose of the engine and found this...

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The countershaft belt had broken and jammed between the crank pulley and the tensioner (the rusty looking cylinder at center). [I had already removed the belt before thinking to take a photo. In the photo the belt is repositioned approximately where I found it so as to illustrate the idea.] BTW folks, I replaced this belt when I replaced the head last fall. It is only 3 months old.

Putting two and two together I now surmise that the belt broke (perhaps unrelated to the impending failure due to oil starvation?), resulting in the crankshaft counterweights repeated striking the countershaft's cam lobes, producing the loud clear tapping noise I describe above. Does this sound reasonable?

I ran out of time to drop the pan to check yesterday, but will get to it ASAP. Now curiosity has the better of me. I want to know what exactly happened in there. In any case, since I have it apart, I may just scrounge another block and drop it in there with the fresh head.

BTW, does anyone know off hand if the engine can come out the top by sliding the engine towards the driver's side? Or is there not enough room?

Thanks! Stan

 

[91 white tsi]

Engine and tranny will come out the top bolted together after you have all the alt and ps pump off as you do. I have had my engine out 6 times and pulled them both as one every time. I dont know if you can unbolt it and pull it out due to the fly wheel

 

[Dauntless]

Cool...thanks! I have an engine hoist and don't mind yanking them together. I just thought it might save some time if I could lift out just the engine. So what do you do with the half-shafts?

Any special hints or pointers would be appreciated!

 

[Dauntless]

Well, I had some free time on Saturday, so pulled the engine and tranny. While pulling the oil pan off I got my first surprise -- two rod bolt nuts rattling around the bottom of the pan.

It turns out that it was not the belt which caused the engine to suddenly and violently stop. It was the crankshaft wedged against the number 3 cap and connecting rod. When I finally released the crank, the rod looked like this.

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The numbers 2 and 3 rods were burnt looking, and the center rod journals looked like this.

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They are coated with bearing material, but otherwise don't look too bad.

On Sunday I was able to purchase a fairly low mileage 6-bolt short block, which has already had its balance shafts removed, so I should be back on the road shortly.

 

[91 white tsi]

Hell yeah....glad to hear you got a new engine and found the problem. kinda sucks thats what the problem was but i guess the heads still good atleast if it was the T belt you would need a head and short block. well i hope you are running soon I wish i were running seeing as there is about 5 inchs of snow outside right now and i have my turbo in the basement :thumbdown . how was pulling the engine??

 

[Dauntless]

Snow? Sorry, I don't DO snow...

Getting the engine and tranny out was no real problem. My wife dug up an old Haynes manual that I'd forgotten about, so I just used that for guidance.

And now that I have the tranny out and sitting on the bench, I'm thinking about clutch and diff options. My old engine is a 7-bolt, so the flywheel won't fit. The new short block came with a flywheel, but I've been thinking about an aluminum piece and a Phantom-type LSD.

And I purchased a tall 5th gear from TeamRip today to make freeway cruising a bit more mundane.

Looks like I'll be keeping the Talon for a while.

 

[Defiant]

Looks like I'll be keeping the Talon for a while.

Any trouble getting rid of his body?

 

[FireyIce01]

Yanno, I'm only 23, and if I did that to one of my dad's motors..... well... first off, I'd never be driving ANY of his cars ever again.... secondly, I'd learn how to rebuild a motor quick (If I hadn't already rebuilt so many of my own), cause that's what he would have me doing with it... Hope you found a good place to dump the body... though I would suggest taking it out to oakland, less likely to be noticed there

 

[Dauntless]

Yea, next winter he can buy my '84 VW diesel...all 58 hp! :laugh:

If the crank checks out okay I'll probably rebuild the 7-bolt block for a spare or to sell. Can they take 2g pistons for a bit more compression? I'll keep an eye on the classifieds and on eBay for some rods. And I think I'll replace the number 2 connecting rod as well, since it's pretty roasted looking. Anything else low-buck I should consider?