Seam Welding and Roll Cage questions.

[drivemusicnow]

Okay... So far from my searches I've turned up a couple threads.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158852&highlight=seam+welding

This thread talks about pictures that don't exist anymore. If anyone has these, I'd be VERY APPRECIATIVE!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199419&highlight=seam+welding

This thread gives a pretty good explanation of how to seam weld, and steps to take.

Here are a couple questions I have.

Are there any parts that shouldn't be seam welded? Is there anything i should do if i have about a 1/2 inch long rust spot along where i would need to weld (pictures coming when I get home from work)

As far as the cage goes:
I would like to tie the rear suspension together as best I can. RRE has a picture of Tallinis rally car (http://www.roadraceengineering.com/rre/raceteams/tallini/tallini-buildcage-backsection.jpg)

I like the above, however I'm looking for some more input as to strengthen/stiffen the chassis. is there any real point of a full "X" across the back window?

Any other input or "I did this" would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[B2119]

AFAIK, the best/easiest places to seam weld are along the subframes. Otherwise, the car will have to be completely stripped. I don't know how far you are going to take this.

With roll cages, the key is to have triangulation. Since it is the strongest shape, it will add the most rigidity, which is the point in having an X across the back, it creates 4 triangles. Really strong roll cages in street cars get hard to build, as you cant run anything from the backseat area, to the front passenger area. also, an X on the "ceiling" of the car will help a lot.

Here is a good triangulated cage!

http://tamiya.com/english/products/24240imp_wrc2001/impwrc_3.htm

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Could you provide any more info on how serious you want to get with this?

 

[drivemusicnow]

I don't plan on rolling my car down a mountain. However, I need to fit SCCA rules. I'd like to also make it work with NHRA however, that would just be a plus. Its uh, not exactly a street car

The only exception is it still needs to be :cough: street legal... for an event I plan on running. (I'd also like for the car to have a "stock" ish looking interior (for now) If at all possible keeping the rear seats in place (they're lighter than any box I could put back there) I'm keeping all the plastic trim for anything you'd see in the interior, however all the trunk crap is getting tossed.

I will be strippping it down completely and leaving it that way when it becomes a trailor queen track whore, however that time is not now.

I'd like to stiffen the rear as much as possible. Maybe even a "strut tower brace" made out of 1.75" thick tubing would stiffen it up a bit back there We'll see. I first have to find someone to weld it for me. I can weld okay... but I'm just not THAT confident in my abilities.

It really depends on how much funding I have in the next 6 months or so... I see some "pre - made" ones for pretty decent prices that I think with a little effort could be made into a solid cage.



Heres an Idea of how far I'm taking this:

 

[Turbo Shogun]

Might want to check the rulebooks, but I've had veteran auto-xers tell me that SCCA requires bolt-in cages, as welds are hard to inspect ...

Go to www.ioportracing.com ... They have good prices on Autopower cages. I believe DSMparts.com has a better deal on an 8-point cage. It's weld-in, but I'm sure you can weld on the mounting plates THEN bolt it in the car.

Also ... Pulling all electrical devices out of the car? I work at a shop that fixes farm equipment and we never take anything out of them when we're repairing chassis stress cracks ...

 

[drivemusicnow]

Might want to check the rulebooks, but I've had veteran auto-xers tell me that SCCA requires bolt-in cages, as welds are hard to inspect ...

Go to www.ioportracing.com ... They have good prices on Autopower cages. I believe DSMparts.com has a better deal on an 8-point cage. It's weld-in, but I'm sure you can weld on the mounting plates THEN bolt it in the car.

Also ... Pulling all electrical devices out of the car? I work at a shop that fixes farm equipment and we never take anything out of them when we're repairing chassis stress cracks ...

If you're asking if I completely stripped the car to disconnect all the wiring... then no.

The car is stripped for a couple reasons, one to put it on a diet (I'm next ), two to get rid of unnecessary crap that i don't need. (rear washer fluid reservoir anyone??), three to seam weld and install a cage.

As for the cage, I don't believe that SCCA has a problem with welded in cages. From what I've read of the rules, the only NON welded in cages are in the "showroom stock" and "touring" classes. (I'm talking club racing, not solo)

I plan on using 6"x6" plates, because that is the larger of the two requirements (NHRA vs SCCA)

So if I did a X basically IN the rear hatch, dropped straight down from the bottom of the X to the two strut towers then had a cross beam between the two.

Connect the top of the X to a Halo/roll bar. the run to bent bars forward (mount just before the dash) and reinforce those with some cross bracing.

THAT^ would be a 6 point cage... what else is needed? Do I need to run the bars along the roof lines to the windshield, across and then down through the dash?

 

[B2119]

Might not be a bad idea to run a bar across the front windshield. Even an X on the roof. Any plans for door bars?

 

[Turbo Shogun]

Looks like alot of work ... Keep us posted on how it's going. Especially the seam-welding bit. There's actually a few hot-rod shops around here (Bolingbrook/Joliet Area) that do some fabrication work. I've been meaning to ask them how much it'll cost to build a rollcage from scratch. I'm sure they know about stitch-welding a chassis for racing as well.

And I'll see you at the open-track races next spring.

 

[92awddsm]

Well, you linked a post that I was involved in so Im sure you already looked at my pics. If not, I will attach a a link to view them. Anyway, when seam welding, weld any place where metal meets metal inside and out. All of the body parts are spot welded which tends to flex so a solid weld will help strength.

And also when welding in a cage, the more bars you add, the more weight you add. You could get to the point where you add more weight than what you removed. Just for info, my cage weighs about 85 lbs. Now, add a rear x, roof x, dash bar, and halo with front strut bars, thats another 80-85 lbs. In all, did you remove 160-170 lbs from the car to compensate for the cage you added? If so, good for you but if not, you just made it weigh more. Hearing others responses sounds good but without real world experience, They really dont know what they are talking about. Some might overbuild and think it makes alot of difference in structural stability, but it really doesnt after a certain point. Its not like your car will ever see turns really exceeding 1g or launches exceeding 1-2g either. Now, a rollover might see more but if you stick with a spec cage and keep weight to a minimal, you will be safe and your car will be rigid.

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192909

 

[ECTurboDSM]

One thing to consider when running cage bars forward of the of the front seats is that if you are not wearing a helmet at all times, you have an all new safety hazard. Imagine your head getting thrown into one of those bars.

 

[zephyr_8]

You have linked to a thread where I explianed my seam welding so I won't go into that. One thing you have mentioned is the "stock looking interior". I'm assuming since you want a cage you don't want it to look like a sleeper(or perfectly stock). One thing you could look into is putting down new carpet and adding some fabric or vinyl in the back instead of the plastics. I know it sounds retarded/ghetto/ugly but bear with me. I did this in my car to get rid of the weight (the stock stuff may not weigh that much but my "rear interior" weighs like 5 pounds max now). I can explain it and put up pictures if you are interested.

I don't think you have stripped the interior enough yet. It gets kinda hard to weld down in some of the little corners and in the foot wells in the front. There is also a bar behind the dash that is only spot welded and I think it will help if welded up. It may not do much but it can't hurt! I couldn't weld the whole front seam when I did it because of all the stuff in the way. All I had in the car was the crap behind the dash.

As far as the welding: I wouldn't recommend welding your cage in yourself if you aren't confident in your abilities. The seam welding itself isn't that hard though. It really is just pull the trigger a short time, wait til it cools, then weld right next to it. (At least thats how I did it.) I love tig welding aluminum though...so it may just be that seam welding is simple because other welding is really complicated(or I'm crazy).

I drove my car this weekend at a local autocross. My times(and my friend's who was also driving my car) were faster than alot of the mod class cars on slicks! My car is stock suspension, stripped, and on street yokohamas. I was amazed at its handling. It had little understeer and could be forced into power oversteer. Just thought I would give you some extra motivation!
If you want pictures of anything on my car just give me a yell.

 

[drivemusicnow]

You have linked to a thread where I explianed my seam welding so I won't go into that. One thing you have mentioned is the "stock looking interior". I'm assuming since you want a cage you don't want it to look like a sleeper(or perfectly stock). One thing you could look into is putting down new carpet and adding some fabric or vinyl in the back instead of the plastics. I know it sounds retarded/ghetto/ugly but bear with me. I did this in my car to get rid of the weight (the stock stuff may not weigh that much but my "rear interior" weighs like 5 pounds max now). I can explain it and put up pictures if you are interested.

I don't think you have stripped the interior enough yet. It gets kinda hard to weld down in some of the little corners and in the foot wells in the front. There is also a bar behind the dash that is only spot welded and I think it will help if welded up. It may not do much but it can't hurt! I couldn't weld the whole front seam when I did it because of all the stuff in the way. All I had in the car was the crap behind the dash.

As far as the welding: I wouldn't recommend welding your cage in yourself if you aren't confident in your abilities. The seam welding itself isn't that hard though. It really is just pull the trigger a short time, wait til it cools, then weld right next to it. (At least thats how I did it.) I love tig welding aluminum though...so it may just be that seam welding is simple because other welding is really complicated(or I'm crazy).

I drove my car this weekend at a local autocross. My times(and my friend's who was also driving my car) were faster than alot of the mod class cars on slicks! My car is stock suspension, stripped, and on street yokohamas. I was amazed at its handling. It had little understeer and could be forced into power oversteer. Just thought I would give you some extra motivation!
If you want pictures of anything on my car just give me a yell.

I'm interested in how you did the rear. Heres my thing, I don't have the funds to turn this car into a FULL track car right away, so I need something that I can drive on the street (very little), and doesn't attract unwanted attention. I was going to start pulling the dash apart. I just haven't had a chance yet.

I'm going to be doing several road course driving schools, as well as a couple events in this "trim"

Then I hope to have the funds available after I'm done with school to possibly make the car competitive in NASA super Unlimited. I've decided SCCA pretty much sucks. AWD cars are basically shunned.

I wasn't planning on doing the cage, however I have a couple buddies that are extremely good that I might call in a 24 pack favor and have them do it. We'll see how it ends up.

I'm thinking I might get the pre-bent/built kit and add on to that as needed, at least for the roll bar and forward bent bars. Still haven't decided if I want to do the full cage right now, or wait until later.

 

[zephyr_8]

If you are going to buy a bolt in cage i would recommend that you at least weld in the plates after bolting them. Call me paranoid, whatever but personally I would rather have a half way decent weld job around two plates bolted together than two plates just bolted together. Yes I like overkill. I drive my car hard, I like knowing my roof won't try to take the space my head is in. My plates are welded 6x6 3/16th mild steel.

My car is my daily driver. Actually it is my only car. I drive it to school, work, wherever. It also looks almost normal. I say almost because its obvious to anyone its not a normal interior but its not soo obvious as to attract attention(like when i had it completly gutted for 4 months). I will try to get some pictures for you but I just started a new job and don't get off til its dark out so who knows when I'll get a chance. My interior is all black except the doorpanels, dash, a-pillars and part of the console, so it wouldn't show up well except in direct sunlight. Oh and all of the interior stuff i did(minus the welding) cost about 200 bucks in materials and about 3 days of work. I could have done it quicker/cheaper but i wanted a full length black carpet.

I dont want to attract too much attention on the street either. Which is why i went with a black interior/roll bar. Once I tint the windows some it will be unnoticeable. The roll bar pretty much blends in from a distance.

 

[MIdsm]

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/cage_symposium/cage_symposium.htm

 

[dnhieu]

If you are going to buy a bolt in cage i would recommend that you at least weld in the plates after bolting them. Call me paranoid, whatever but personally I would rather have a half way decent weld job around two plates bolted together than two plates just bolted together. Yes I like overkill. I drive my car hard, I like knowing my roof won't try to take the space my head is in. My plates are welded 6x6 3/16th mild steel.

My car is my daily driver. Actually it is my only car. I drive it to school, work, wherever. It also looks almost normal. I say almost because its obvious to anyone its not a normal interior but its not soo obvious as to attract attention(like when i had it completly gutted for 4 months). I will try to get some pictures for you but I just started a new job and don't get off til its dark out so who knows when I'll get a chance. My interior is all black except the doorpanels, dash, a-pillars and part of the console, so it wouldn't show up well except in direct sunlight. Oh and all of the interior stuff i did(minus the welding) cost about 200 bucks in materials and about 3 days of work. I could have done it quicker/cheaper but i wanted a full length black carpet.

I dont want to attract too much attention on the street either. Which is why i went with a black interior/roll bar. Once I tint the windows some it will be unnoticeable. The roll bar pretty much blends in from a distance.

you should definetly post some pics on where you seam welded. you guys make it seem like i will have to leave the interior out once i have the car seam welded is this true?

thanks
david

 

[drivemusicnow]

you should definetly post some pics on where you seam welded. you guys make it seem like i will have to leave the interior out once i have the car seam welded is this true?

thanks
david

No, seam welding is only panels that are already spot welded together. All it does is make a more solid attachment, which stiffens the chassis.

ALL of the interior will still fit in. However, it will have to all come out for you to be able to effectively do this.

MIDsm haha, I had already looked through that link, however I didn't notice that each "page" has lots of slides... thanks for reposting it because otherwise I wouldn't have seen that

I was thinking buy a "kit" cage and then Weld it together. I don't like the idea of "bolting in" a roll cage either.

It's funny, my buddy with a 91 camaro put his cage in. He has SOO much room to work with its not even hard for him to have a 8 (sorta 10) point cage, and still have back seats and no problems fitting them with the fronts. stupid small 1gs

 

[zephyr_8]

I lost my cameras cable so no pictures. Sorry about that. I'll look for it but no promises. I can try to explain it but it isnt that simple.

The reason my interior didn't fit back in was my cage, not the seam welding. The welds only stick up like 1/4 inch or so. They might interfere with something under the plastic but I really doubt it. I never intended to put the plastics back in, so I didnt design the cage to fit around them.