[RESOLVED] Sudden hard shifting in M/T

[eclipsh]

All the sudden I'm having a very hard time getting into 1, 2 & R with my M/T. I really have to jam it or coast for a little ways and try again to get it into gear. I'm fighting to get into first at stoplights. Some trends I'm noticing are: it is SOMETIMES easier to shift when cold. Also, sometimes if I double clutch it shifts a bit smoother. When I'm having trouble I can still slip into third or fourth easily. I try rowing it through the other gears to get it to slip into one or two but I'm not sure if that does any good.

I'm a little lost as to why this is happening. I had my tranny rebuilt about 10-15k miles ago and made sure that the correct preloads were on the bearings etc and used TRE synchros etc. It has a Borg-Warner clutch with about 25k miles on it and, sadly, I used their TOB (didn't know any better then.)

I did have some trouble with a worn out clutch pedal assembly. My clutch had been disengaging near the floor for some time. I finally got the assembly out and repaired it so my clutch releases about half-way up/down. It didn't help a bit. I've checked the fluid (BG Synchroshift II) and it looks good and full.

My friend Rick suggests it is a bad pressure plate that isn't releasing fully. I'm skeptical because it is grabbing at the half-way point when I'm parked.

 

[JackM]

If you are 100% sure the clutch isn't dragging, it could be you have the input shaft preloads wrong. The input shaft can make it very hard to shift if it's too tight.

I believe though that it is a clutch problem too. Try this but be very careful:

1) Have the car running with the e-brake off so it can roll.
2) Push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor and hold it there.
3) Turn off your launch limiter in DSM link so the engine can hit 7K RPM.
4) Put the car into 1st gear.
5) Rev the engine up until you feel the car start to move forward.

If the car moves forward below 7200RPM, your clutch is dragging.

Jack

 

[eclipsh]

I'm pretty sure the preloads aren't the problem. It has been shifting great for the last two years on this build and I DD this car so it has gotten a workout.

I'll give your idea with revving to 7k a try and see what happens. Guess I'll do a search for good new clutches and start hitting up eBay for one while I'm at it.

 

[eclipsh]

Well, I tried revving the engine to the moon with the clutch in and the car in 1st. It didn't budge a bit or feel like it was dragging at all. I'm starting to wonder if the Syncromesh II is too slippery now that my syncros have a little wear on them. I might drain it into a clean pan and fill up with something else to see.

Any word on the reliability of F1 stage 3 clutches?

Edit: Since our site has next to no info on these clutches I'll link to an outside Honda (GASP!) source. Guess one guy had some trouble at least.

 

[eclipsh]

So I found out the front-back moving bushing at the tranny end of the cables was heavily ovaled out and had a lot of play. I replaced that with a roller bearing this morning. Now I can feel it not go into gear that much more crisply! It was a nice upgrade but I still can't shift worth a damn. I'm going to play with the cable adjustment more now and see what I can come up with. If that doesn't work I'll drain the fluid this weekend and replace it with something gooeyer. I'm also going to contact TRE and see what they have to say about my problem since I got my parts from their shop.

 

[greentrbo_95gst]

Try bleeding the clutch system first. If that does not work, move to the next option.

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

I replaced that with a roller bearing this morning. Now I can feel it not go into gear that much more crisply!

I am also having a similar problem. I can usually got third then get into reverse. Or if I am almost coming to a complete stop I can get it into first gear. Once I get going it will shift into gears easily.

 

[eclipsh]

Try bleeding the clutch system first. If that does not work, move to the next option.

Thanks, the guy I talked to at TRE suggested it as well. He said it really sounds like a dragging clutch. My mechanic here in town drove it and didn't think that was the issue and said I should check the linkage.

So... I'll check the hydraulics next but I think I'm going to end up with a new clutch going in. I'm also having trouble getting into gear when the car isn't running now. If I do end up pulling the tranny out I'm going to pull it apart too and see how the guts look.

I am also having a similar problem. I can usually got third then get into reverse. Or if I am almost coming to a complete stop I can get it into first gear. Once I get going it will shift into gears easily.

When I shift now and it doesn't go into first or second it feels like I'm hitting a steel wall. If it does go in I can feel every complaint coming right back up to my hand. It's awful. With heim joints on the shifter and no rubber grommets on the base there isn't anything softening up the feel.

I'll keep you updated on what I find. Best of luck with yours.

 

[Auto RS T]

Wow, this seems to be a pretty common issue. How come I haven't heard of any problems like this until now?

My 90 is experiencing the same events except I know that my clutch is now slightly dragging. Pedal disengaging off the floor. Hard into first, third, and reverse. In addition I cannot downshift from 3 to 2 without moving into the first gear posistion with the clutch in. The trans was just partially rebuilt last year with the addition of all new synchros, reverse idler gear, a hub and slider (not sure which one), and an ACT 2600. This setup has about 6-8k on it. The clutch pedal assembly appears to have no wear. This is all very disapointing.

During the Shootout this problem has worsened and now I must wait even longer on the 1-2 shift. There is no grind whatsoever though, either it goes in, or I hit a wall stay clutched and wait for it to drop it in gear.

I have bled the clutch numerous times replacing the master and slave also and bleeding some more. Even installed an extended slave rod. No luck.

What I have come up with is two possible problems: a bent clutch fork/worn out ball assembly, and a bent shift rail. Do these answers seem to make sense? My first plans are to replace the clutch fork and reassemble eveything and see where that gets me. This will be a few months down the road, but it is in my plans.

I Didn't want to hijack, just thought it was a good addition to your thread, hopefully our questions will be answered. The problems seem extremely similar if my clucth wasn't additionally dragging.

 

[eclipsh]

You aren't thread-jacking at all. Glad to hear we might solve a lot of problems if this can be properly diagnosed. I'm sure your dragging clutch isn't helping things a bit. Did you go through the proper sequence for torquing the pressure plate on your clutch down? I've had to pull mine off a few times so I'm wondering if I caused it some problems and they are only now showing up. It just drives me nuts that this is showing up out of nowhere. All I've done with the tranny in the past two years is replace an axle. The problem showed up before I fixed my clutch pedal too. I'm going to try and work on the car this weekend and see what I can come up with.

 

[greentrbo_95gst]

when was the last time you changed your master and slave cylinders? Have you tried adjusting the clutch?

 

[eclipsh]

I changed the master and slave cylinders about 20k miles ago, most of which was highway miles. I have adjusted the clutch as well but I will play with it more tomorrow. I didn't have the cap off the master cylinder when I was adjusting the rod so I may not have been getting proper adjustment out of it. Nevertheless, I can feel the clutch grab and disengage at the half way point where it is supposed to be. I'll post more tomorrow when I know more.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Subscribed, so I can see how this is fixed.

Bill

 

[eclipsh]

Well, I was over at my buddy Pagosa DSM's house today installing my Ground Controls and had the car up on the lift. We played around with the clutch a bit too. I put the car in first with the clutch in and the wheels didn't budge. I tried the same in 2nd and third with nothing. If I let the clutch out it'd grab right where I thought it was, about 1/2 way up from the floor, and started spinning the wheels. It killed the engine when I did it in 3rd gear, even with the car off the ground.

SOOOO........ the clutch and hydraulics are just fine; perfectly actually. We also messed around with the cables and made sure the heim joins on the shifter end weren't hitting anywhere. Everything looks good. Next time I'm going to drain the fluid out and replace it. I'll see if anything shiny comes out and run with it from there.

I'm really starting to think I've got some internal problems. If stickier fluid doesn't solve it I'm going to have to pull the tranny out and tear it apart... again. *sigh* Anyone have an Evo 3 first gear and a steeper 5th gear they wanna give me while I'm in there?

 

[eclipsh]

Update:

While I was driving around this afternoon I was checking the movement in my shifter upon acceleration/engine breaking while in different gears. Fifth gear doesn't even twitch. 2nd gear moves quite a bit, as does fourth. I didn't notice any movement in third or first but I didn't play with those much.

So I'm thinking I have some bad end bearings on one of the shafts and it is rocking back and forth, thus giving me some of my shifting problems. I think I'm going to try and pull the transaxle out next weekend and open it up to do a visual inspection. On a lift it shouldn't be more than a half hour of work to pull it if I work fast.

I also noticed that quick shifting during hard acceleration seemed to result in better shifting. It seems counterintuitive but there must be a reason for it. I'm guessing it is because the side load on the (theoretically) loose shaft is keeping it aligned better and allowing things to slip into place before.

 

[marsh63]

wow it sounds like mine to. i have the hardest time getting it into 2nd 4th and reverse. i have taken out my pedal assmbley and weldend the end that had play in it. i have bled my clutch a thousand times and still no luck. but for some reason mine will grind sometimes.

my clutch engages where it should so im thinkin it the syncros or the clutch fork.

srry bout tellin you my story but when i go to fix mine and if it works ill tell you guys. tell me if you get any luck.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Hi,

I would think that it would have to be something in the transmission. Because if 1-3-5 are fine but 2-4-R are not then its probably not the clutch and I would suspsect something in the transmission, such as a shift rail or shift fork or something like that.

Bill

 

[eclipsh]

Yeah, I'm almost cetain it is the bearings. Watching more closely 1, 3 and 5 don't move but 2 and 4 do. I have trouble giong into 1 and 2, none going into 3, 4 or 5.

If it is just the bearings then it is a cheap repair. If not I'm in trouble.

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

Did you figure out your problem. Seems a bit strange that we all have 90's with the same problem.
Since then I have bought the Speed-Source bushings, Symbroski kit, had my slave and master clutch cylinders redone by Road Race with a SS clutch line and nothing! I am having trouble going into first unless I am coasting, trouble going into second and third almost grinding, can't really tell anymore due to the replaced bushings. My shifter did have a lot of play so I even put in washers. My clutch also engages right off the floor.
I'm really stumped.

 

[eclipsh]

I've been on vacation for two weeks so I haven't gotten to play with the car. I won't know anything for certain until I can pull the car apart.

If your clutch is engaging right off the floor with good slave and master cylinders you probably have a worn out clutch pedal assembly or bad adjustment. Check out the VFAQ for details on that.

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

Well clutch pedal adjustment is maxed out and the assembly does not wabble and the spring reacts.

 

[Auto RS T]

Removed the transmission and clutch. Sadly to say as for the hard shifting issue I am having I may have found a very simple solution. With a more thorough investigation I found that the shift selector arm bracket had come unoticably loose. I had checked the shift arm bracket and cable bracket prior to dropping the trans and a few times before. It didn't move very easily, but with the force of a shift I am sure it would have moved.

I cannot identify the arm as the true cause until I re-install the transmission, I do strongly believe it to be the cause of the hard shifting issue. According to the guide on checking the clutch fork in the transmission window my clutch fork is not bent, so that is ruled out. I am getting a new clutch and replacing my hand grenade of a flywheel, so this will take some more time to know for sure.

The clutch drag issue is still unknown at this time, there were things that I saw that I didn't like, but I don't believe this pertains to the shifting issue.

 

[eclipsh]

I got my issue resolved. I replaced a very slightly leaky master cylinder and put a new Centerforce clutch in the car. When I pulled the old disc out the springs in it were so trashed they were bouncing around freely in the hub. The pressure plate looked decent but I didn't want to chance reusing it. The car is shifting well now but it needs some adjustment and probably still has a little air in the lines.