[RESOLVED] Low Boost After 16G Install !!!! Please Help

[ChrisGo]

Just got my 16g installed and took it for a spin and could only boost 10psi I have checked for boost leaks and only get them from the valve cover breather. I adjusted my MBC and no difference. I checked for exhaust leak and i do not see any carbon or any signs of a pre turbo exhaust leak. I bought the turbo used could it be bad? There is very little side to side shaft movement. The only problem i do know exist is a good size oil leak on the return line. Please help me on this i am getting discouraged

 

[jesselee69]

Check the line routing on the MBC

would a leak there cause air to come out of my valve cover? I have done a BLT when it was warmed it was still there just not as bad..

 

[kenamond]

would a leak there cause air to come out of my valve cover? I have done a BLT when it was warmed it was still there just not as bad..

What I mean is that if the gurgling is the "normal" amount, then that's not your problem, and you should go back to looking for the leaks between your turbo and throttle body. Couplers, charge pipes, IC, BOV, j-pipe gasket, etc. And don't forget to plug the j-pipe MBC vaccuum line. Listen for hisses, use a spray-bottle full of super-soapy water (dish soap), etc.

Always do a BLT on a fully-warmed motor or you'll just confuse yourself. The ring blowby is much greater with a cold motor, because they haven't expanded and closed the end gap, so those leaks look like boost leaks during a BLT. Same goes for a compression test; if you test on a cold motor, you'll get much lower compression readings.

 

[MadScientist92]

Hook the wastegate up to an intake manifold vaccum source and try that. At the very least hook it up to the same source as your boost guage. You may be getting pressure drop across your intercooler. Just a thought though.

 

[ChrisGo]

What I mean is that if the gurgling is the "normal" amount, then that's not your problem, and you should go back to looking for the leaks between your turbo and throttle body. Couplers, charge pipes, IC, BOV, j-pipe gasket, etc. And don't forget to plug the j-pipe MBC vaccuum line. Listen for hisses, use a spray-bottle full of super-soapy water (dish soap), etc.

Always do a BLT on a fully-warmed motor or you'll just confuse yourself. The ring blowby is much greater with a cold motor, because they haven't expanded and closed the end gap, so those leaks look like boost leaks during a BLT. Same goes for a compression test; if you test on a cold motor, you'll get much lower compression readings.

Ok I stopped the oil leak and took her for a test run. These are the problems i am still facing;

1) Only 10 psi no matter what i do to the MBC.

2) Smoke coming from the flex section of the downpipe

3) Oil specks on the rear of my car


Well i think i have a bad turbo, but the only thing is that it was putting the oil speck on the rear of my car with the old turbo. Granted it was not smoking from the flex section though. Please let me know what you guys think



P.S. I primed the turbo before I ran it...

Chris

 

[kenamond]

Ok I stopped the oil leak and took her for a test run. These are the problems i am still facing;

1) Only 10 psi no matter what i do to the MBC.

2) Smoke coming from the flex section of the downpipe

3) Oil specks on the rear of my car


Well i think i have a bad turbo, but the only thing is that it was putting the oil speck on the rear of my car with the old turbo. Granted it was not smoking from the flex section though. Please let me know what you guys think



P.S. I primed the turbo before I ran it...

Chris

Well, if you're getting oil out of the exhaust, I imagine you're also puffing blue-white smoke, right? The oil could be coming from the hotside of the turbo (hope not, it's new) or it's coming from the motor (hope not, that's not good either ). The only way I can think to tell the difference is if you pull the exhaust manifold off of the motor and look for oil in the exhaust ports of the head. Maybe someone else has a better/easier suggestion. You could pull the plugs and look for a bad, fouled, oily plug, but that won't tell you if the oil is leaking from an exhaust valve seal. But if you pull the ex. mani. and see no oil in the mani runners or exhaust ports, I'd say the turbo has to be leaking the oil (where else between the DP and exhaust ports could feed oil?).

If it's the turbo, you might consider rebuilding it...might be cheaper. I've seen T25 rebuild kits on eBay for $70, but I don't know if they suck or if 16g kits are more expensive. If the shaft play isn't bad, the CHRA, shaft, wheels, and housings should all still be good.

Dunno, dude. Find out where the oil is coming from and go from there.

EDIT: But when you disconnected the WGA nipple, you hit 15psi (and had to let off, so maybe it would've gone higher). That still tells me it's a MBC problem - atleast related to not being able to boost past 10psi. If you can post a picture of the MBC, either yours or one you find on-line that looks close, we might be able to fix that problem. But burning oil is nothing to ignore, either. I think you have atleast two issues.

 

[ChrisGo]

Well, if you're getting oil out of the exhaust, I imagine you're also puffing blue-white smoke, right? The oil could be coming from the hotside of the turbo (hope not, it's new) or it's coming from the motor (hope not, that's not good either ). The only way I can think to tell the difference is if you pull the exhaust manifold off of the motor and look for oil in the exhaust ports of the head. Maybe someone else has a better/easier suggestion. You could pull the plugs and look for a bad, fouled, oily plug, but that won't tell you if the oil is leaking from an exhaust valve seal. But if you pull the ex. mani. and see no oil in the mani runners or exhaust ports, I'd say the turbo has to be leaking the oil (where else between the DP and exhaust ports could feed oil?).

If it's the turbo, you might consider rebuilding it...might be cheaper. I've seen T25 rebuild kits on eBay for $70, but I don't know if they suck or if 16g kits are more expensive. If the shaft play isn't bad, the CHRA, shaft, wheels, and housings should all still be good.

Dunno, dude. Find out where the oil is coming from and go from there.

EDIT: But when you disconnected the WGA nipple, you hit 15psi (and had to let off, so maybe it would've gone higher). That still tells me it's a MBC problem - atleast related to not being able to boost past 10psi. If you can post a picture of the MBC, either yours or one you find on-line that looks close, we might be able to fix that problem. But burning oil is nothing to ignore, either. I think you have atleast two issues.

I bought the turbo used so it could be the turbo. It does have side to side movement, but i don't know how much is considered bad. It just got me how it was smoking from the flex section. Also here is a link to the MBC i use eBay Motors: OBX MANUAL BOOST CONTROLLER CIVIC INTEGRA B16 B18 B20 (item 370033989433 end time Mar-25-08 10:19:22 PDT)
Thanks for all your help


Chris

 

[kenamond]

I bought the turbo used so it could be the turbo. It does have side to side movement, but i don't know how much is considered bad. It just got me how it was smoking from the flex section. Also here is a link to the MBC i use eBay Motors: OBX MANUAL BOOST CONTROLLER CIVIC INTEGRA B16 B18 B20 (item 370033989433 end time Mar-25-08 10:19:22 PDT)
Thanks for all your help


Chris

The description in that link says it isn't a ball/spring MBC, so I'm assuming that means it is a bleeder MBC. But usually, a bleeder MBC isn't hooked up like the picture shows in that link. At that price, you could've bought a reputable brand that is known to work. Might consider selling that one and getting a ball/spring unit...or making one yourself for $10-$15.

 

[98eclipsekidd08]

Ok I stopped the oil leak and took her for a test run. These are the problems i am still facing;

1) Only 10 psi no matter what i do to the MBC.
2) Smoke coming from the flex section of the downpipe

3) Oil specks on the rear of my car


Well i think i have a bad turbo, but the only thing is that it was putting the oil speck on the rear of my car with the old turbo. Granted it was not smoking from the flex section though. Please let me know what you guys think



P.S. I primed the turbo before I ran it...

Chris

So you can boost 10psi no problem? If so theres no way its the turbo eather the mbc is hooked up incorrect or its bad or something else. Like I said earlier, I had this problem and it was eather my MBC, plugs, or a boost leak because I did thoes three things at once then took my car out and it ran amazing. I just bought a hallman mbc and love it.

 

[kenamond]

I agree that you should get a different MBC. Get a ball/spring one from a reputable source. My Joe-P IL MBC cost under $50 and works perfectly. There are a zillion brands out there to choose from, but pick something that you can expect to work and doesn't cost too much.

Then fix those boost leaks.

Are you sure the smoke wasn't just old oil from the leak you fixed?

 

[ChrisGo]

I agree that you should get a different MBC. Get a ball/spring one from a reputable source. My Joe-P IL MBC cost under $50 and works perfectly. There are a zillion brands out there to choose from, but pick something that you can expect to work and doesn't cost too much.

Then fix those boost leaks.

Are you sure the smoke wasn't just old oil from the leak you fixed?

What i am going to do today is take off the down pipe and see if there is any oil inside it.. I'll keep you'll up to date.

Chris

Well did some more test today. Which included compression testing now only need to do a leakdown test. Well here is what i found and i included pictures of the spark plugs. I am running lean the only time i run lean on my Wideband is sometimes during idle it just pegs to lean for no reason but would my plugs look like this?

Test Results;

1) 169
2) 161
3) 161
4) 160

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh246/gsx4u2nv/Spark1.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh246/gsx4u2nv/Spark2.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh246/gsx4u2nv/spark3.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh246/gsx4u2nv/spark4.jpg

 

[talon187]

ok you said you have wideband? your air fuel should be about 11.5 to 10.6ish a wot if its leaner then that you need to turn the boost down. when i put my 16g on it took forever to boost because of the stock exhaust. i put an apexi full exhaust on and my car went so much faster spool and everything. i also think somthing it up with your mbc. if your geting air from the valuve cover you could try replacing your pcv value that may help as well whats your af at?

 

[ChrisGo]

ok you said you have wideband? your air fuel should be about 11.5 to 10.6ish a wot if its leaner then that you need to turn the boost down. when i put my 16g on it took forever to boost because of the stock exhaust. i put an apexi full exhaust on and my car went so much faster spool and everything. i also think somthing it up with your mbc. if your geting air from the valuve cover you could try replacing your pcv value that may help as well whats your af at?

A/F is at 10.6 at WOT. As i said the only time i hit a lean condition is when i lef off the gas and idling.. It will idle perfectly then all of a sudden it will shoot to lean and you can hear the car kind of skip per say. Thanks for your help.

P.S. i am around 15 A/F at cruise

 

[talon187]

thats fine thats about what i run at myself..did you change your plugs? that may help what size injectors are you running and what are you tuning with if there bigger the 450s? i have you checked to make sure your injector seals arent leaking?

 

[98eclipsekidd08]

From looking at the plugs you gotta be running lean, swap them out with some NGK BPR7ES and then see how it runs, if it runs good check the plugs again in a couple days and see how they are looking.

 

[ChrisGo]

thats fine thats about what i run at myself..did you change your plugs? that may help what size injectors are you running and what are you tuning with if there bigger the 450s? i have you checked to make sure your injector seals arent leaking?

I am running 450s with stock boost, i just put in the 16g and only drove 5 miles maybe.. Even with the stock turbo i never ran lean, except when i idled and that was only for maybe 2 sec then it corrected itself. I know the injector seals aren't leaking because i replaced them about 2 months back.

From looking at the plugs you gotta be running lean, swap them out with some NGK BPR7ES and then see how it runs, if it runs good check the plugs again in a couple days and see how they are looking.

Will do can you get the NGKs from Autozone, Advanced?

 

[krkline2gdsm]

I didnt bother reading the books people wrote to the issuee this kid is having but i have simple fixes for each problem he is having.

1. The oil leak. Assuming its the drain? DO NOT USE RTV!!! I dont care if its laced with gold and comes in a platinum tube. To seal it the correct way, you need 2 gaskets, 4 crush washers, 4 bolts, and clean mating surfaces. If done correctly, it will not leak. I am speaking from expierence and not from something I read online.

2. The boost leak. Just a guess but... its probably wastegate/turbine side related. If the problem happened just after you swpaped the turbo then we are pretty safe to say its not an intake manifold gasket, BOV, MBC, etc. It must be turbo related. The wastegate sleeve tends to slide out causng the flapper to be offset. The flapper might not be perfectly over the wastegate hole so take ott turbo and inspect. If its offset, hit sleeve back in turbo until alligned properly and throw a tack weld there so it doesn't move. Another issue could be a crack. Mitsu turbine housings dont contain enough nickel and tend to crack right down the right side of the inlet and through the wategate seat. This crack my be big enough to give the effect the wastegate is opening @ 10psi but really the exhaust is leaking internally and not enough to spin the wheel.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Let us know the results

 

[krkline2gdsm]

ok you said you have wideband? your air fuel should be about 11.5 to 10.6ish a wot if its leaner then that you need to turn the boost down. when i put my 16g on it took forever to boost because of the stock exhaust. i put an apexi full exhaust on and my car went so much faster spool and everything. i also think somthing it up with your mbc. if your geting air from the valuve cover you could try replacing your pcv value that may help as well whats your af at?

Where do you get your info from? When he is running lean, he needs to increase fuel.. not turn down the boost. Stock fuel system good for roughly 14-15psi on a B16G flow rate before starting to hit fuel cut.

 

[krkline2gdsm]

I just read you swapped the MBC too. Safe to say its your MBC. I would get a real oneand not some knock off. Also, if oil is coming out of the exhaust and hasnt before the turbo swap, its pretty safe to say that your turbo is leaking oil internally.

Do not attempt to rebuild the turbo yourself. Send it out. When turbos are taken apart, they have to be balanced. If you dont have it balanced, your turbo will proply create some serious shaft play and go bad very quickly... the odds are pretty good.

Get some pics up! I wanna see if this is a real B16G

 

[Mr Peepers]

I just read you swapped the MBC too. Safe to say its your MBC. I would get a real oneand not some knock off. Also, if oil is coming out of the exhaust and hasnt before the turbo swap, its pretty safe to say that your turbo is leaking oil internally.

Do not attempt to rebuild the turbo yourself. Send it out. When turbos are taken apart, they have to be balanced. If you dont have it balanced, your turbo will proply create some serious shaft play and go bad very quickly... the odds are pretty good.

Get some pics up! I wanna see if this is a real B16G

I have a hard time believing it's the MBC.

There are 2 extremes, either the MBC isn't allowing the WG to see any pressure or it's allowing all pressure at the pressure source to reach the WG. One instance will have open boost, the other will be the WG spring pressure, which in this case is around 10 psi. A MBC can only raise the boost pressure, not lower it. Even with a line going directly to the WGA you should see 10 psi far before redline. A MBC can't magically create more pressure than the turbo itself and open the wastegate prematurely.

My bets are still on a faulty CHRA or a wastegate issue such as cracks and/or erosion around the wastegate hole/flapper seal and/or an off-center flapper. An off-center flapper will allow exhaust to constantly leak past, slowly eroding the seat. It could be possible that the flapper is stuck open, and the boost seen is actually caused by boost creep. This could also be caused by the flapper falling off or a horrible flapper seal as described above.

For balancing, this is completely dependent on the cause of failure. MHI turbos appear to be component balanced, meaning each part(compressor wheel, turbine wheel, shaft etc) are balanced individually, and the orientation in respect to one another is not important. If the failure was due to improper balance, such as a chipped fin, then of course it will need to be balanced for it to last. Many guides suggest marking the orientation of the wheels with respect to the shaft, just in case. There are turbos that are balanced as a unit, and you could also run into a MHI unit that was rebuilt using that technique.
There are many factors to consider, but rebuilding an undamaged turbo without balancing it doesn't mean eminent failure.

 

[krkline2gdsm]

We can argue turbo balancing all night so lets not go there

Now the boost issue.. read what my first thoughts were. I agree with you but think for a second. If he disconnected the wastegate all together and hit 15psi like nothing then clearly the wastegate hole is sealing properly. Give a 1-2psi gauge error but it sounds like to me that the MBC is letting boost past around 10psi causing the wastegate to open at 10psi. I bet if he bypassed the MBC and hooked up a vacuum line to the wastegate, the wastegate would still open at 10psi. A MBC restricts the boost pressure so when you are at 15psi, the MBC converts the wastegate line to 10psi to open the wasteagte (or whatever the wastegate spring is set at)

Bad MBC. Willing to bet on that if the diagnosis is correct as he described here in this thread.

BTW: Here is my 14b offset with a cracked wastegate hole:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[98eclipsekidd08]

chrisgo do any of your frineds have a manual boost cont. they will let you borrow for 5 min. Thats what I did and thats how i found out my MBC was a piece. Bought the hallman and problem solved.

 

[kenamond]

Fix the boost/vaccuum leak. Turbos don't make you run lean at cruise on stock fuel. At cruise, the front O2 sensor is responsible for letting the ECU know what stoich is, and it doesn't seem to be able to do that. If you have a logger, check your SFTF and LTFT to see if they're way-positive. Might be the front O2 sensor is going bad. $50 for a new O2 sensor.

Get a new MBC or try "wiring" your MBC like a bleeder-style. You know you can run 15psi or more, so that screams "MBC issue".

After you get those two straight, see if you still have other problems.

 

[Mr Peepers]

We can argue turbo balancing all night so lets not go there

Agree to disagree on a subjective subject

For the boost controller, you have to consider that lowering the pressure seen by the WG will INCREASE the effective psi ran.

I will add something that I wasn't thinking about before though:

Ball and spring type MBC's need to have a bleeder hole on the WG side to keep it from acting like a check valve and holding the flapper open. It is possible this MBC does not have one and is keeping the WGA pressurized at all times, leading to a flapper that never closes, and boost that rises solely from boost creep.

I take back my statement that it can't be the MBC.

 

[kenamond]

Agree to disagree on a subjective subject

For the boost controller, you have to consider that lowering the pressure seen by the WG will INCREASE the effective psi ran.

I will add something that I wasn't thinking about before though:

Ball and spring type MBC's need to have a bleeder hole on the WG side to keep it from acting like a check valve and holding the flapper open. It is possible this MBC does not have one and is keeping the WGA pressurized at all times, leading to a flapper that never closes, and boost that rises solely from boost creep.

I take back my statement that it can't be the MBC.

I looked at the website he posted regarding his MBC, and it states that it is NOT a ball/spring MBC, but it shows installation just like a ball/spring unit. That makes me think the vendor doesn't know wtf they're talking about. He might be able to install it like a traditional bleeder MBC, but I'd dodge that bullet and just get a new ball/spring one (or make one, but some risk comes with DIY parts).

I think he has boost leaks and a bad MBC. And maybe something else, too. But fixing the known (suspected) issues first will help with figuring out the other issues (if there are any).

 

[ChrisGo]

I looked at the website he posted regarding his MBC, and it states that it is NOT a ball/spring MBC, but it shows installation just like a ball/spring unit. That makes me think the vendor doesn't know wtf they're talking about. He might be able to install it like a traditional bleeder MBC, but I'd dodge that bullet and just get a new ball/spring one (or make one, but some risk comes with DIY parts).

I think he has boost leaks and a bad MBC. And maybe something else, too. But fixing the known (suspected) issues first will help with figuring out the other issues (if there are any).

I feel as though i have no other boost leak except the valve cover breather. I have fixed the fallowing boost leaks;

TB shaft seals

Bliss screw

Injector seals

BOV

A couple of couplers

I will be ordering a new MBC on Monday.

Also when i did the compression test i let the car warm up to operating temperature, and there was no smoke coming from the flex section of the DP. Then i took it out for a spin to make sure it was good and warm. When i returned it was smoking from the flex section. Also i checked the O2 housing and it was filled with black oily soot and it was brand new when i installed it.

Chris