ECMlink Phantom Knock? TUner thinks so

[PrimerPLus]

1) Boost Leak, vac, Exhaust?

None- tested 5psi higher (30psi)

2) Verify Mechanical Timing.

All lined Up

3) Base Timing

2g – Ecmlink says 5degrees

4) Ignition System

BPR7ES – gapped 0.025” (was suggested I was getting blow out and to gap to that)

5)Motor Health

Good

6)Throttle Adjustment

ISC at 46 at idle with no acc. On (Brand new OEM ISC) – rebuilt 2g throttle body

7) Compression Ratio

Havent tested but don’t suspect anything wrong with compression

8) Wiring and sensors

-Old harness, possible something is wrong in harness but don’t know for sure.

9)DTC/Cel codes

-None that aren’t known of the cause

10) Electrical System

-Red Top battery, new Galant Alternator 90AMP

11) Base fuel pressure

-stock 43.5psi

12) Wideband Sensor

-AEM Uego – adjusted for correct reading in ecmlink

13)TYPE OF FUEL

-90octane

14)ecmlink vids

-yes watched



I am trying to get my car tuned via Remote Tune.
My tuner thinks I am getting phantom knock.
I ordered a new knock sensor and that did not make any change.
I don't know what could cause it.
Do you think I am getting phantom knock or is it real?
I have a couple of videos that may or may not help.

Do you think the block heater could cause phantom knock? My knock sensor is right next to it. You can see in the video.
Getting knock at about 4k rpms
I tried adjust fuel sliders by 8% no change.
10% no change.
Put my direct access back to stock and knock didn't start until about 5k rpms

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[BoostedBeaver]

Adding fuel is not the cure to knock in most cases. You can actually get knock from running too rich and the car can start to feel sluggish. I would suggest zeroing the fuel sliders and utilizing the DA fuel table to make changes to your fuel if you decide to do so.

Pulling timing is generally much more effective route to take. Pull a couple degrees of timing when it starts to knock and see if that affects it. If you pull 2 or 3 degrees with no effect, I would lean towards Phantom knock. However, your getting this under full boost so I would be very cautious as it has a chance of being actual knock.

Make sure your tuner has at least some knowledge of the platform and the software.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

that is real knock i would say. shows up just as your wideband and afratioest start to mimic eachother.

Why does this constitute “real” knock? The goal of tuning is to get your actual AFR to match the commanded AFR. The fact that they match has nothing to do with knock.

you could add more fuel, but thats just a bandaid, not the problem.

Adding fuel can cause the mixture to be excessively rich and could in turn cause knock so it could be the problem.

Here is a little article you should read : http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

the problem is your ve map doesn't match your injectors yet. but 14psi and 2.5 counts of knock is not bad.

Global fuel and deadtimes dial in your injectors. Your VE map is proportionate to the engine’s airflow. Yes, this correlates to more or less fuel based on the expected airflow but your VE table is not used to dial in the injectors. The correct statement would be the VE table doesn’t match your airflow.

To the OP,

Knock doesn’t start in your log until 3500 because your knock sensor is set to 3500 and 50%. Your Wideband shows that you are incredibly lean until 3200 RPM’s. I would be willing to bet the car is knocking well before its showing up in this log. You really should confirm that your tuner is a trusted individual with knowledge of the platform. I would not recommend any more pulls until you fix your tune.

Robert

 

[dacowgod]

Ive tuned literally a thousand cars or more. I have began tuning this one His car knocks the same amount whether it is rich or lean.. And whether you remove the timing or leave it where it is.. I cant even begin to dial it in no matter what i do the knock is the same amount and in the same place...

The logs he posted do not show the prior attempts at adjusting the timing to eliminate the knock... I had him start throwing fuel at it with the sliders just as an easy way for him to make some relatively quick changes and
To try to make a difference and get me some examples back.... From my seat I have to assume the wideband is logging properly and the thought process at that point was this car is Alaska they have TERRIBLE fuel and maybe his wideband throwing me for a wrench...


This car is making less airflow then a t25 the boost is turned all the way down .. it should not be showing knock at this point no matter he cannot even get near the engines efficent area to make a proper global fuel correction hence throwing fuel at it with the sliders.


Like i said my best guess is the knock sensor is picking up something either lifters or wastegate chatter or a heatshield rattle or something ... The only other things that would constitute real knock at his load is a car that is significantly out of time either ignition or cam time ....

I am simultaneously tuning another persons car in Alaska as we speak and have tuned at least a handful of cars there and a ton in California thats also stuck with junk fuel... 10.5 afr is the happy afr on low octane fuel to make any kind of power ....

Rich knock will happen at lower airflow and is something I had not considered ... I was thinking his wideband was throwing me for a loop reading leaner than actual ... Maybe it was reading richer than actual

Fwiw Rich knock typically does not show as a problem at higher airflows once the car starts to make power ... Which this car is not making any

The knock sensor setting of 3500/50 percent is there to also combat phantom knock that is the very point of this settings existence... Phantom knock usually exists at low rpm and a setting like this would let the car get past the spot of "phantom knock" and keep on trucking without pulling the timing ... This knock is not "phantom knock" it isnt following the typical
Behavior of phantom knock in these cars however i am hard pressed to believe it is legitimate knock being no matter what adjustments i have made it is consistent every single.

Hopefully this clears up some
Of the details and behind the scenes thinking that the OP couldnt convey ... I don't typically follow posts on here so don't expect a follow up reply unless you bring it to my attention somehow.

 

[cjridert1]

Years ago my timing belt tensioner went out, and I had lots of knock I couldn't tune out.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

@dacowgod there was no indication of what remote tuner the OP was using and therefore, I posted the comment about picking a knowledgeable tuner. I in no way meant to challenge your abilities.

To the OP,

Since we now know who the tuner is, I would suggest following his advice/diagnosis. He has built a good reputation here on this site for the services he provides.

Personally speaking, Dacowgod helped tune my first setup 4 or 5 years ago with great results. Since then, he has tuned some very notable cars here on the site and has a vast knowledge of the DSM platform and link.

Robert

 

[dacowgod]

Haha I took no offense my friend... I just wanted to clarify the situation ... I assume you are Robert B then? New screen name? We havent talked in quite some time I hope all is well ...


There were plenty of ambiguities in the original post that would have lead me to the same suggestions and conclusions ...I just wanted to clarify to help with any brain storming that may happen ...Josh was also certainly not trying to call me out he was just looking for ideas as I was running out of thoughts myself ..

This car is absolutely not behaving as one would expect even on a low quality fuel ....

Josh ill txt you offline i have a few more random thoughts some we have went over but just for added clarity ...

If anybody else has some random thoughts we are certainly receptive ...


That timing tensioner thought is a pretty random one i havent actually ran into... I have seen open dump tubes cause this on several occassions but that isnt the case on this one...


Whats airfare to Alaska? Maybe I need to make a trip?!

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Haha I took no offense my friend... I just wanted to clarify the situation ... I assume you are Robert B then? New screen name? We havent talked in quite some time I hope all is well ...

That’s me. I must have been a real pain for you to remember me for this long I acquired a new screen name some time ago for many reasons, mainly because my first choice was a poor one. All is well on my end and I hope all is well on your end too.

As for other ideas, the WB is between 18:1 and 19:1 during spool up and its like a roller coaster post spool up. I know you can’t get a good pull for a global adjustment but its the roller coaster effect that stood out.

First I was leaning towards an inconsistent air flow but the airflow and Omni show no sudden fluctuations. The WB factor is 56% at one point and 23.4% 400 rpm’s earlier in the same log (8percent log). I’m on the fence about trusting the WB signal and its accuracy. Even with crap fuel, we should be able to get a predictable AFR?

As for the rich knock idea, it seems that the knock comes in almost 1000 RPM’s later at 9.5:1 compared to the 10.5:1. I am not sure if this is repeatable but if it is, that would go against my theory of being to rich.

 

[dacowgod]

Hahaha ..


no you weren't a problem I just recall chatting with you a few times you were eager to learn and had plenty of good questions... most people just want their car to run right ...

anyways ... I questioned the wideband before we even started tuning because I'd never seen one actually log properly like that..
OP insists it is logging accurately though at least matching the gauge ... does not mean the wideband is functional but can only assume it is ...to further the discussion he said the car continuously throws a random misfire code which is not a typical code to catch on a 2g with an OEM Crank/Cam sensor.. I brought to his attention that the 97-99 CAS could be 180 out of phase which could cause a random misfire and other anomlies ...I wouldnt necessarily think injector phasing would cause the entire scenerio here but it certainly wouldnt be helping ... so he is going to check that out ..

He also said he is going to send the injectors out and have them cleaned and tested... which could very well be it ... I have seen dirty injectors cause many many weird things happen on my own personal car as well as several others.... especially ones that have seen E85 and have sat dormant for any period of time...

Theres obviously something finnicky going on here.. I imagine it will get ironed out

 

[Kapok6]

Have you pulled you plugs after a pull to look at them? That should give you a pretty good idea of what is going on.

 

[Nate355RS]

If we want to trust the wideband is reading correctly, that kind of fluctuation makes me think there is a problem with the fuel system. Have you tried testing the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump? You can hook up a boost leak tester and activate the fuel pump with ECMLink. Then as you pressurize the system you should see fuel pressure rise 1:1 with boost. If you do this and the fuel pressure doesn't rise as it should, or if the pressure is erratic and jumps around you've probably found your problem.

Also with the rewire kits some of those inline waterproof fuse holders are faulty. If you lightly pull on the wires on each side of the fuse and the fuel pump cuts off, the fuse holder needs to be replaced.

 

[PrimerPLus]

Great,info everyone.
I did check my CAS and turns out I had it 180 out. oops.
Waiting for my injectors to get,back from FIC and then I'll give it a test. Hopefully all will be good.
My gauge reading and ecmlink reading show pretty dang accurate to eachother.
I followed Gofers video on youtube to set it up.

And of course I wasn't calling my tuner out haha. I just like to see what other people have to say and get a different perspective and that helps to,identify issues and resolve them.

I don't suspect any issues with my fuel pump or afpr. Both are reputable brands. However if after fixing the cas and getting my injectors back I still have the issue I will further diagnose and I will be sure to check those out.
Thanks again everyone.