New to DSM but no 'Newbie'-Questions

[Streetwize]

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to pick up a 91-93 Turbo car (as soon as I find the right one) to start playing with. I had a 91 Laser RS when it was new but didn't keep it long.

I've been messing with fast cars and motorcycles for over 24 years, mostly "Old School"
Big Block mopars, some 5.0 fords, Turbo Buicks and a 9 second Yamaha V-max motorcycle. I presently have a 10.9 second 70 Charger powered by a 508ci roller cam stroker motor that makes 620hp off the bottle. I also have a 427" stroker small block in a 65 427 Shelby Cobra replica, it runs 6.90's in the 1.8th they won't let me on a 1/4 mile with it due to not having a roll bar. I've even played with Hondas some, I had a low 13 second 2000 si with a blower that ran pretty good. I learned a good bit about fuel mapping and tuning of EFI and DFI over the years too, just gotta get up to speed on the Mitsubishis.
I build all my own motors and have been porting heads for over 20 years.

I've been fascinated by the DSM 2 liter motor so for now I'm just looking for a good 6 bolt block to start playing with while I drive the car around. For now I just want to build a reliable 450horse motor to get a feel for how streetable the combo can be and to see where the limits of streetability and reliability are.

Questions:

1. what are the hp limits of the drivetrain? What are the weakest points?

2. Has anybody succesfully run a turbo automatic? The reason I ask is that the auto with the right converter can be an advantage in drag racing and particularly the 60' times due to the fact that you can load up the converter and leave on the boost. Does anybody have HP race mods (race clutches/bands, manual valve bodies, etc) for the auto tranny?

3. Who are the best Tech experts on the site? what are their member names? I'm a pretty hard-core technical guy that likes to go fast, You probably won't find me in the Audio and body kit forums. More power to ya, just not my scene. I'm into the sleeper thing.


Thanks, look forward to being here, hope to be able to share some real-world tech advice.

Wize

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to pick up a 91-93 Turbo car (as soon as I find the right one) to start playing with. I had a 91 Laser RS when it was new but didn't keep it long.

I've been messing with fast cars and motorcycles for over 24 years, mostly "Old School"
Big Block mopars, some 5.0 fords, Turbo Buicks and a 9 second Yamaha V-max motorcycle. I presently have a 10.9 second 70 Charger powered by a 508ci roller cam stroker motor that makes 620hp off the bottle. I also have a 427" stroker small block in a 65 427 Shelby Cobra replica, it runs 6.90's in the 1.8th they won't let me on a 1/4 mile with it due to not having a roll bar. I've even played with Hondas some, I had a low 13 second 2000 si with a blower that ran pretty good. I learned a good bit about fuel mapping and tuning of EFI and DFI over the years too, just gotta get up to speed on the Mitsubishis.
I build all my own motors and have been porting heads for over 20 years.

I've been fascinated by the DSM 2 liter motor so for now I'm just looking for a good 6 bolt block to start playing with while I drive the car around. For now I just want to build a reliable 450horse motor to get a feel for how streetable the combo can be and to see where the limits of streetability and reliability are.

Questions:

1. what are the hp limits of the drivetrain? What are the weakest points?

2. Has anybody succesfully run a turbo automatic? The reason I ask is that the auto with the right converter can be an advantage in drag racing and particularly the 60' times due to the fact that you can load up the converter and leave on the boost. Does anybody have HP race mods (race clutches/bands, manual valve bodies, etc) for the auto tranny?

3. Who are the best Tech experts on the site? what are their member names? I'm a pretty hard-core technical guy that likes to go fast, You probably won't find me in the Audio and body kit forums. More power to ya, just not my scene. I'm into the sleeper thing.


Thanks, look forward to being here, hope to be able to share some real-world tech advice.

Wize

Sounds good!

1. Theres no set HP limit. Wheel hop can kill the front or center differential. The shift forks can be broken by someone shifting to hard, but those don't care if you have 50 or 500 hp...just a matter of trying to make the tranny go into gear when it says no(IE shifting FAST with bad synchro's). The synchro's are wear items so scratching 2nd or 3rd is coomon on old transmissions. on 90-91 (3bolt)cars the rear axles are very weak...on 92-94(4 bolt) they are very strong. This is about all there is to worry about up to 350 ft/lbs and 400 hp....after that some more esoteric problems can occur.....but are generally unlikely.

2. The auto tranny is as piece to begin with, it can be brought up to good enough for a 13 second street car but beyond that you want a 5 speed. It is relatively fragile and a has gigantic drivetrain loss even by auto standards. Some guy was going high 10's a while back but it was very hard on him. Another member changed from his auto so a 5 speed and his trap speeds increased from 106 to 112 MPH. 5 speeds can launch at boost quite easily with a stutter box -- Clutch is in, rev limiters at 5500, and bouncing off that gives you say 12 psi to pick a fairly random number (based on turbo size)...not my prefered method but it can be done.

3. Some member of this site has a tag called "Wiseman"....about half of them are worth listening too.

So why 91-93? 6 bolts ended in 92, but existed in 90's....93-94's have the 7 bolt....but they also have a slightly better transmission(dual synchro second started somewhere in there, you will have to look for the production date on that, I don't know it off the cuff.) and they have larger brakes(dual piston instead of single as well.) The 7 bolt is not a bad motor....handles as much power as the 6 in reality...and just find a spare 6 bolt block to build in the mean time.

 

[Streetwize]

Hey, thanks for the input! So we want a 91-92 motor with a 93-94 AWD drivetrain, that helps a lot.

I found a very cherry looking Teal/Grey '94 16V auto, not my first choice of powertrains but it's in way too nice of shape to turn down, besides I need a daily driver for going to and from work. I'll probably drive it for a while and build a 6 bolt motor while I look for another Street-strip AWD car.

I've heard that the fixed light 92-94's are lighter than the 91-91's, I guess due to not having the hide-away light components.

It seems to hold true that these motors will about run forever if you keep a fresh Timing belts on them, you see so many of them with 160-180-200+ thousand miles on them. I wonder what is it about the seat on these things that they never look worn out like most other cars with only 100K miles? Of course I'm sure they suffer from the ECU time bomb where the main computer bus fries for no apparent reason any time over 80K miles. I had a 91 Mighty Max that did that.

Still learning about the bottom end design, not used to seeing the 1-2 and 4-5 'bridged' main caps. I'll probably by an old motor just so I can autopsy it to learn more. Does anybody make billet steel caps for these motors? I know a lot about race motors of all types, in fact I've done consulting work for a couple of NASCAR teams and I've worked for SLP Engineering (Firehawks and SS Camaros).

Thanks again, lookin' forward to being here.

Wize

 

[kooka]

most a stock 6bolt has ever taken so far 550Whp. Most I've ever heard out of a 7bolt is 453Whp.

In stock form, I can totally understand the craze with the 6bolts. When it comes to building motors however, a 1g 7 bolt is superior IMO.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

the lightest DSM is the 90, due to far less stringent crash testing as opposed to 91+....we're talking 80-90 pounds, so I have heard.

The ECU's have 2 potentially leaky capacitors that can damage the boards, this must be checked for ASAP....everything else is fine and once those are replaced the ECU's are immortal.

I have 237k on my 11.7 second daily driver. The head has never been off the block.

The main caps are not an issue. I have never heard of a failure remotely related to one.

 

[Streetwize]

So if you catch and replace the capacitors before they fail you can bullet-proof the ECU??

Sounds great!

Where do I learn about this?

I'd love to build an 11 second reliable street DSM car, Hopefully it'll get better mileage than my >600hp 508" 70 Charger does!! BOV's are cool but there's still nothing that sounds as quite as cool as a Big Block Mopar V8 with dual 3" exhaust an an X pipe crossover. Imports give me my props by turning down their tunes and rolling the window down and waiting for me to take off. I've got a 250 horse 2 stage direct port Nitrous system "in case" but I haven't had to use it...yet!

Love the old school stuff, always will but I believe in staying up with the best of the new technology. This ought to be fun!

So far I found three choices:

91 2wd Turbo Auto Blue 124K decent shape

92 2.0 Manual, 132K decent shape but dark green (not wild about color)

94 2.0 Auto, 127K, New tranny, Excellent shape, Teal

About 2000-2200 for the non turbo, guy want's ~3400 for the Turbo, I'd offer ~3 tops

Opinions?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

www.vfaq.com has a ton of random info including ecu repair.

11 second reliable car....sure, it can be done, and you certainly won't need to open the motor up until you get quite deep. It will be nice to have a second car though....I don't and I hafta be a bit mroe careful then Id like sometimes =)

Just wait and eventually ou will find a 90-94 AWD 5 spd for 2-3k.....you do NOT want Fwd or auto, I assure you.

 

[Jazzie6044]

on the tranny-check a couple of the vendors, places like TRE make some hardcore upgraded trannies that can take some abuse. for good ways to make power, see the upgrade section, its a pretty tried and true process though there are some recent upgrades now available that can change things. good luck and have fun.

Jesse

 

[DevilSperm]

I'd like to add if you can find an early built 92, it has a 6bolt motor with a 4 bolt rear end...i believe they switched to the 7 bolt in may of 92....that would be the car to find IMO
welcome to the site

 

[Streetwize]

Thanks guys!

I'm trying to be patient and wait (just missed a black AWD Turbo )

Waiting Sucks! I want something new to play with!

I figure with just head studs and a Cometic Head gasket, those motors should hold a bit more boost reliably, just gotta find the injector sizing/pulsing/tweaking info to do it right.
But at what point do the pistons and the ring seal start to give out?

What's really cool is I can buy a whole DSM car for what my last pair of Mopar heads cost me! Of course they'll make over 800hp on a 517" low deck going in a 2900lb Duster. Should just dip into the 9's, all motor.

 

[kooka]

the lightest DSM is the 90, due to far less stringent crash testing as opposed to 91+....we're talking 80-90 pounds, so I have heard.

Actually the lightest is a certian trim offered in '94 talons. Second is the '90 laser, just because it was avail basic as hell without power anything and fwd.

 

[nevermore]

WELL!
I am in the same boat. My buddy is selling a 1g Tsi, 92 I think, GREAT shape, no rust etc. BUT it's auto. He is going to sell it to me for $1000 because needs to make room ASAP. the cars is such good shape it's scary. I could get it from him and work out a personal payment plan, but the crappy thing is, it's auto. I have a 98 ESi and it's ASS Slow, and I like the 1g's better anyway. So what would you guys suggest I do? There isn't many good shape Talons up here in Canada in the sticks. So I am kind of at a loss. Let me know, thanks.

 

[kooka]

Autos are great.

 

[anomalyinva]

A couple things to realize,
1. Auto transmission cars come with 390cc injectors, down from 440 in 5-speed, and a 13g turbo, down from a 14b in 5-speed.
2. I've personally seen a car with 15x,000+ miles run to 173,000 with 510+whp on a stock 6-bolt long block.
3. Look up John Shepherd, at http://www.shepracing.com/ , for your transmission needs. He has had the fastest AWD DSM for quite some time now. He is said to have run over 100 passes without taking his transmission apart, whereas TREs car goes about 3 passes before they grenade one. As well, he is cheaper than anything remotely close to as good.
4. As has been stated, a January-May 92 production car is "the best". It has a 6-bolt motor, and 4-bolt rear-end.
5. Make sure you get a car with an Eprom ECU, some have a different setup, and only Eprom can get reburned ECU chips to change rev limit, 2-step, removing fuel cut, injector compensation, etc.

Welcome to the club man =)

 

[Streetwize]

Ok, I'm gonna hold out for a Turbo 5 speed AWD as long as I can.

Since that's the case, if anybody hears of one let me know. It's Just gotta have functioning a/c right now and not smoke when I drive it.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Actually the lightest is a certian trim offered in '94 talons. Second is the '90 laser, just because it was avail basic as hell without power anything and fwd.

Bullshit. They had 90 AWD's without power windows or door locks, you can't get much more stripped then that. Coupled with 90's being a ton lighter and even if that 94 had no a/c, power steering, cruise control, abs and stereo (which they all do) the 90 would probably still me around the same weight. I'd love to hear what makes this fictional Talon so light.

3. Look up John Shepherd, at http://www.shepracing.com/ , for your transmission needs. He has had the fastest AWD DSM for quite some time now. He is said to have run over 100 passes without taking his transmission apart, whereas TREs car goes about 3 passes before they grenade one. As well, he is cheaper than anything remotely close to as good.

Bullshit. If you talk to John, he likes TRE, if you talk to TRE, they like John, who's better is up in the air, I have a TRE and love it....but theres no way we are going to pretend their are four orders of magnitude difference in the reliability.

 

[DevilSperm]

Ok, I'm gonna hold out for a Turbo 5 speed AWD as long as I can.

Since that's the case, if anybody hears of one let me know. It's Just gotta have functioning a/c right now and not smoke when I drive it.

well there is one 30 miles from my house you can pick up for $850, it needs a fender and some light body work on the door and hood, but its in Nebraska

 

[SpoOLxExO]

Ok, let me chime in here as this guy wize seems to know what he's talking about.

Engines:

The *Best engine you can get is the 90 6-bolt. These engines (Along with all the other 4g's that don't crankwalk) Are virtually invinceable. The rings, and pistons are the best I've seen from a stock engine, and many of my NewEnglandDsm Compadres will agree.
In fact there is a member that is throwing down 495WHP on a completely stock engine, as far as internals/ headwork is concerned.

Some 7-bolts Crankwalk, but not all. Some 6-bolts crankwalk, but not all. I have had my 6-bolt CW on me and many people could not beileive it. The general consensus is:

90-91 6-bolt are the best platform. 97-99 7bolts seem to have the CW issue worked out alot better than the 95-96 engines.

Transmissions:

While true that 5-speeds are the preferred generally, the autos have the "No lift to shift" advantage, combined with a properly sized converter, and large turbo an auto car will put it down on alot of fast cars.For auots look up Dunrite converters, and shift kits. For 5-speeds, Shep is a good source, but don't forget BM transmission, and of course TRE.

The Rated "Capacity" of a 5-speed is 210 hp, however there are certain cases where a granny shifting 11 second car will survive, just as well as a powershifting 13 second car will grenade a trans..so the driving style is the biggest factor.

www.vfaq.com will be a huge resource for you. Its the original, even before DSMtuners.
www.dsm.org is a good overview as well.

FWD cars can go fast but with different preperation. If you can put up with the torque-steer, then a FWD drag car will get silly trap speeds.The AWD launch is just a spiritual experience though, better than FWD in the opinion of 95% of DSM'ers.

I hope you enjoy your DSM journey, and good luck with sourcing the "Perfect" car.

Welcome abord!

 

[jake98gst]

Transmissions:

While true that 5-speeds are the preferred generally, the autos have the "No lift to shift" advantage, combined with a properly sized converter, and large turbo an auto car will put it down on alot of fast cars.For auots look up Dunrite converters, and shift kits.

Let's not forget IPT. John (transdude) at IPT is the GOD of the A/T DSM world. Forget Dunrite. Forget LevelTen. IPT is the place to go. Sorry. I just didn't want him going to the wrong place looking for info.

Thanks,
Jake

 

[SpoOLxExO]

No, good call.

I don't even have an auto so what the hell do I know!?

StreetWize, do let us know how you make out. What platform you go with etc.

 

[Streetwize]

thanks for all the help guys! I'm looking real hard for an AWD Manual, mainly because both on the street and at the track having AWD to click-off a silly quick 60' time is what it's all about.1.6's will take down most street tire driven cars and in spite of the extra weight of the AWD, I'd rather be able to dump the clutch and launch harder.

I notice a lot of guys remove the balance shafts, Knowing something about the mitsubishi design, I wouldn't think they would take a ton of power away from the crank and with a 180 crank and a relatively long stroke they might actualy help in terms of minimizing second order harmonics (Vibration transfered into the block and caps).

Stick cars are much harder on the crank and valvetrain the automatics, the thrust bearing really gets a work-out behind a high RPM manual. With autos, the engine turns the pump (an A/T is essentially a multi stage hydraulic pump) and the pump really drives the car. I'm suprised that the Mitsu auto trans is only 70% efficient, that's very low for a FWD set-up.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I know little of auto's, but I have heard the thrust load on a long drive @ the relativey high RPM's a 4 banger has on the freeway can create a lot of thrust load. Any ideas's on how high is high?

Im sure FWD is LESS effcient then RWD in terms of drivetrain loss. Especially DSM style FWD(with the engine spinning the wrong way).

 

[kpt4321]

This thread blew up fast, so I will try to cover as much ground as I can.

The 90-92 motors are all about the same, although 90's tend to have some "weird" things that can be different from the other years which can be a bit of a pain at times. These motors, as has been stated, have made over 550 whp without anything but a new set oif camshafts.

The 93-94 motors are built to be lighter, and as such they perform better in stock form. However, the rods are smaller so the power limit is lower. I know plenty of people making over 400 whp on a stock 7-bolt.

Crankwalk isn't really something worth worrying about, not if you are going to buy a 1g.

Talons are the heaviest of the three DSM's, due to their excessive bodywork. The sideskirts, for example, add a lot more weight than you would expect.

The Lasers are the lightest, for the oppositve reason, and I believe that in general they tended to have less options.

Don't really waste your time buying for weight, but a car for motor and drivetrain. It's very inexpensive to strip out the heavy stuff and lighten the car up to a level lighter than you could have gotten by finding one of the "light" model years.

As such, look for a 92 is you don't plan on building a motor, and if you want to build a motor look for anything from 92 to 94. The rear ends on the 92+ are the 4-bolt, which is MUCH stronger than the 3-bolt rear in the 90-91's. If you plan on building a motor, than the 93+ 7-bolt is no longer a limiting factor (it is debatable if it would be with your goals in the first place) so a 93 or 94 will be fine.

People remove the balance shafts for two main reasons: The first reason is it vastly simplifies a timing belt job. The second, and more important reason is, on a car that is driven hard and revved high, the balanace shafts are simply a problem waiting to happen. When one of the bearings eats shit, you get crap in the oil; or, if one of the shafts siezes up, you can have the timing belt jump, and your head may get destroyed.

I have never heard of a problem with the thrust bearing due to engine speed.

 

[kpt4321]

3. Who are the best Tech experts on the site? what are their member names? I'm a pretty hard-core technical guy that likes to go fast, You probably won't find me in the Audio and body kit forums. More power to ya, just not my scene. I'm into the sleeper thing.

Depending on what you want to talk about, there are different people to go to, both on this site and elsewhere.

If you want to talk about tuning, or intake/turbo/engine/exhaust optimization, I will volunteer myself as one of the "more knowledgeable" guys here. I'm certainly not the only one, but you know where to find me.

 

[kpt4321]

3. Some member of this site has a tag called "Wiseman"....about half of them are worth listening too.

Do I pass or fail?