need new gas tank, do I need sending unit too?

[pcons]

Hi everyone, this is my first post. I've had a lot of problems with my 91 tsi awd, but I still like the car for what I paid for it. I've been reading up on idle surge, and I've found some info here that is very useful, so hopefully someone can advise me now.

Problem is that last week my car started leaking gas from the gas tank. I haven't driven it since, and the tank is now empty, but it looks to me as though I need a new one. When the car is running, or just after stopping the engine there is a drip-drip (about a drip every few seconds) of gas. It looks to me like its coming from the side of the tank closest to the front of the car, and the tank is about 40% wet, from the mounting bolts to the left hand side (when I'm looking at it from the back of the car, so the 1/2 of the tank closest to the rear drivers wheel). Anyway, I'm assuming because of the size of the wet spot on the tank that a patch isn't possible, and a new tank is required.

Problem is that I can't even find a new one for sale anywhere, I live in toronto, canada. I did find a used one yesterday at a japanese import shop, but it will come off an old car. They want $350 for the tank + sending unit + hookups, or just $180 for the tank alone (this is canadian dollars). My question is which option do I need? Is the sending unit just the external fuel pump that's in the trunk on the 91 awd turbo? I've seen mention that there is a small pump inside the gas tank, is that the sending unit? Basically, I'm trying to only spend 180 instead of 350, unless it seems like it is more cost efficient. My car isn't tuned or anything like that, just need something to keep me running around till I get my ass out of school.

Anyway, thanks for the help. I'm hoping to figure out what to do about this problem over the week, and on the weekend try and solve it. I haven't jacked the car up yet to really give a good look for the leak, so maybe I'm wrong and the tank isn't that bad, so is there anything else I can do to try and figure out if a new tank is necessary? The gas leaks out no matter how much gas is in the tank, forgot to mention that as well, so its not like it only leaks when its above a certain level. Anyway, thanks for the help.
Paul

 

[Darksyne]

The sending unit has a float that tells the gas gauge how much fuel is left. Part of the sending unit is the fuel pump which picks up the fuel and sends it to the engine. You shouldn't need to replace this if it is still in good condition.

I would pull the access panel in the trunk and check the hard lines coming out of the tank. If these were rusted or loose than gas would drip down the front of the tank and leak no matter how much gas was in the tank.

If you do need to replace the tank, talk to Gary at the Mitsubishi Graveyard.
http://www.mitsubishigraveyard.com/

Good luck!

 

[pcons]

Hi again, thanks for the response darksyne. I just took the access panel off, I wish I had my digicam, my buddy has it, maybe I'll go pick it up later today and post a pic, but you are right I think. I opened the panel, and the hard line running into the top of the fuel pump is wet, the top of the fuel pump is wet, and the hard line (I only see a single line and some electrical connectors) is in pretty rough shape. Part of it came off in my hand with a bit of rubbing. I'm going to post some pics when I get a chance just to be sure, but it makes sense to me that this could be the cause of my problems. It looks like the hard like I'm talking about is part of the fuel pump, so it looks like I should be looking for a fuel pump instead of a gas tank? A friend of mine thinks this is more likely since a gas tank should take a heck of a long time to rust though, and while my car is 14 years old, he seems to think a gas tank should last longer. Anyway, any ideas on costs for a new fuel pump, or is there a way to repair this hard line (assuming this is the problem, which looks likely, but I'm not ruling out something else as well....I've had a lot of hard hours spent on this car). Anyway, I'll put up a pic of the fuel pump when I have a digicam again.

 

[Darksyne]

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If the hard line coming out of the sending unit is bad it would probably be easier just to replace it unless you have line flaring tools available.

There would be no problem reusing the stock fuel pump, you just need to swap it to the new sending unit.

Here's some details on what's involved in removing the sending unit:
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/pump-WB-1GAWD2-print.html

 

[pcons]

Ok, I just thought to use my mini dv camera to take some stills. The image quality isn't great at all, but they illustrate what I'm talking about. There's three pics, looking at them I think most peeps would say that's what my problem is, I just want to make sure. Anyway, I guess I'm looking for a new fuel pump, or is there any way to salvage this one? I looked on the online catalogue, and theres a pump for $90 usd all the way up to $550, obviously the high end pumps aren't a consideration for me, but in the low end range, is there any reason why a $90 pump wouldn't suit my needs? My car is still stock, no modifications at all, but I may want to do a few things in the next few months as I get ideas from this site. Ideally, in the summer I want to look for a newer talon tsi awd, mine has no a/c and no sunroof/leather interior. THere aren't any for sale now in my price range though, so I'm keeping this guy around till the summer. Anyway, here's the pics. I had some trouble uploading them earlier, hopefully it will work now.

So, to be clear as crystal. I'm probably going to need a new fuel pump, and replacing this with another unit should be all I need to do?

DAM!, I can't get the photos to upload. My stupid internet service is giving problems with the weather right now (bidirectional satellite internet is good if cable doesn't come to your house, but it sucks if you have another option). I'll try and post some good pics later. Thanks again for the help.

 

[pcons]

Ok, got the crappy pics up. I know this needs replacement, just wanted to show you what I'm talking about. Any opinions on if the rusted link between the pump and high pressure gas line is the full cause of my problems? In other words, to me these pics look like a big pile of rusty mess, so I'm wondering if there's anything else around this area that I may want to look into fixing/replacing before going ahead and putting in a new pump and closing everything up. Any advice on where I could get a pump in the toronto area?

 

[psychlow]

Dear god.

Okay, here's the deal.

The problem is going to be that line - if it is rusted as badly as it looks, it's not going to come off easily, if at all.

You'll want to invest in a set of flare wrenches if you don't have a set (DON'T USE REGULAR WRENCHES - YOU WILL STRIP IT) and try to get that hard line off. Mine didn't look nearly as bad as that, and mine was not possible to get off even with flare wrenches - the line eventually broke. In fact, that may be what happened - the previous owner may have tried to remove that rusted line and broke it.

If it breaks or is already broken, fear not - you can use a cutting tool and a flaring tool (both available for a free rental at an auto parts store) to cut the line, flare it a bit, and use a piece of fuel injection hose to connect the cut lines. If you resort to this, MAKE SURE it is FUEL INJECTION hose and hose clamps, not carbureted fuel hose. Carbureted fuel hose will bust.

You'll also want to use some sort of solvent (brake cleaner?) to get all of that gunk off of that area - just don't hit the wires with the solvent. When cleaning around them, spray the cleaner on a shop towel and clean around 'em. I wouldn't recommend leaving that flammable mess of gunk there, and brake cleaner will evaporate much faster than gasoline will. If you have to end up remove the fuel sending unit, CLEAN THAT AREA FIRST. You don't want all that gunk making its way into your gas tank and/or fuel system.

If you are able to patch it with the hose method above, start looking for a new fuel pump assembly. You probably won't need a new pump (although now would be a great time to look at getting a 190LPH if you plan to mod) but you will need the pump bracket eventually judging by how rusted those lines are.

I've noticed that, not so coincidentally, the amount of rust on that line is inversely proportional to the percentage of our cars' lives that they were garaged.

Good luck.

 

[Darksyne]

The hard line definitely looks to be in bad shape. Have you turned on the car and checked to see if gas is leaking from the sending unit hard line?

 

[pcons]

Thanks for your replies. Darksyne, I haven't looked at the line with the cover off the inside of the trunk, but I have looked at the drip when the engine was running from underneath, and it looks like it would be something from the top of the tank running all down the tank. I only quickly looked at it today before I had to take off....an interesting side story:

When all this happened last week I decided to try and look for a new awd talon. There were two for sale in toronto, 1998's with 104 km on them, but they were out of my price range. I found a 1996 tsi about 2 hours away, and I bought it on sunday after driving to see it. Yesterday morning I called insurance, and from the VIN# they said it wasn't the awd tsi....I checked the autotrader site again and sure enough it wasn't. Turns out that there was an error in the listing when I initially saw it; it used to say awd, but they corrected that on sunday (I first saw the car on saturday online), and I was looking at so many little things on the car when I was actually checking it out that I didn't double check that it was awd since the listing said it was. Anyway, long story short, I got my deposit back and everything, but mostly I'm happy that I'm not crazy and the car did say awd at one point. Anyway, kind of unrelated, but still dsm related So, now there's no tsi awd's in my price range so I;m sticking with this guy till summer when hopefully I can get one with a/c and leather interior.

I am going to try and look closer at this on friday which is the only day I can take off work now that I've spent a day to drive back to get my deposit back for the car. Anyway, thanks for the responses. They've all been very helpful, I feel pretty confident that I know where to go from here, I'll post any progress here......mostly my bitching at trying to get the rusted lines disconnected. I'll probably just cut them and grab a flare tool from canadian tire, figure out how to use that and go from there. Anyway, my pizza awaits

 

[Darksyne]

I am going to try and look closer at this on friday which is the only day I can take off work now that I've spent a day to drive back to get my deposit back for the car. Anyway, thanks for the responses. They've all been very helpful, I feel pretty confident that I know where to go from here, I'll post any progress here......mostly my bitching at trying to get the rusted lines disconnected. I'll probably just cut them and grab a flare tool from canadian tire, figure out how to use that and go from there. Anyway, my pizza awaits

No problem, I'm glad we could help

It might help if you PB Blast the fitting for a few days before trying to break it free. It definitely can't hurt.

 

[dave99gst]

if my tank/lines/ etc was in that much question i would prob just toss in a fuel cell.

 

[pcons]

Ok, I got motivated. I called a place in toronto today (lucky star motors) and they want 150 can for the fuel pump casing off an old eclipse, or 220 for the whole pump. Shouldn't the casing be more like under $100? I'm going to try and look into mistubishi graveyard or some of the other US sites I've come across, but do you guys think I'm looking at around the same price? Because if that is so, I'm just gonna buy the one from toronto, and not worry about shipping/waiting to get it, etc.

I'm going to clean out the rust and gunk from that spot now and try and look at the leak in action with the engine on.....I was thinking about this last night, with all the gas fumes being so close to those electrical contacts for the pump is it a big risk to start the motor up and drive short distances if I need to get around? I'm not doing that, but up until yesterday when I saw those contacts almost soaked in gas I was starting the car every other day so the battery wouldn't die out on me. I'm not doing that any more obviously, I just disconnected the battery so nothing could drain it for now.

 

[pcons]

Ok, cleaned everything up and I looked at the pump while the car was running. Its leaking from the point where the metal line meets the top of the fuel pump, right at the top end. I don't think it will be possible to patch this, will it? I circled the spot on one of the crappy pics from above, it all looks much better after cleaning, but these are the pics from yesterday. The direction of the fuel spray coming out of it is shown with the red arrow. I thought it was a pretty significant leak, it must have gotten worse as I was cleaning stuff up, either way I'm positive this part has to go, and it isn't the pump so I don't think I need the whole enclosure plus pump, so any advice on if 150 canadian is getting gouged for that peice? Also, if I do get a new casing; can I just cut off the rusted one and not worry about loosening the rusted fitting, then remove the other peice from the other end of the fuel line with some vice grips or something, then put the new one on? (I do have a set of flare wrenches though). Anyway, this turned out to be a much simpler problem to solve than I originally thought, could someone please suggest a price for me to try and haggle them down to from 150? Thanks again.

In your opinions, which is better; patch (if possible) and save $$, or pay for a new one? I'm assuming patching would be a pain in the ass (if at all possible, which in my opinion it won't be because of all the rust and location of the spray) since the spray is coming from so close to the top of the lid, but it can't hurt to ask (actually, what I SHOULD say is it can't hurt to hope )

 

[Darksyne]

I'm glad you were able to pinpoint the leak. Since you need to get a new sending unit then the fitting should really be a big deal anymore. You definitely still need to get that fitting free but since you are replacing the sending unit anyway then it doesn't matter if you destroy the old hard line and fitting in the process, as long as you get the fitting free.

I just checked currency rates and I think $150 CAN ($124.12 US) is a bit high for just the sending unit. Contact Gary at the Mitsubishi Graveyard and see what kind of deal he can give you on a used sending unit. I wouldn't think this would be anymore than $60 US.

I would not try to patch or repair the one you currently have, it is rusted beyond repair.

 

[vtracer20]

hey i got my fuel tank replaced in my 93 tsi like less than a month ago...cost me a arm and a leg like 590 for tank/send unit and to put my winter tires on...the tank now has a life time gaurentee from rust, so does the sending unit and gauge, only thing my tank was leaking from a rust hole about 1/2 down the tank so i would loose 1/2 a tank within 2-3 days but i would still be able to run on 1/2 a tank. Good luck with it but i would remember having something do it. The guy told me that no one sells aftermarket tanks for my car...so they sent out my to get like redone or something...looks awsome brank spanking new and i love the gaurentee

 

[pcons]

I'm glad you were able to pinpoint the leak. Since you need to get a new sending unit then the fitting should really be a big deal anymore. You definitely still need to get that fitting free but since you are replacing the sending unit anyway then it doesn't matter if you destroy the old hard line and fitting in the process, as long as you get the fitting free.

I just checked currency rates and I think $150 CAN ($124.12 US) is a bit high for just the sending unit. Contact Gary at the Mitsubishi Graveyard and see what kind of deal he can give you on a used sending unit. I wouldn't think this would be anymore than $60 US.

I would not try to patch or repair the one you currently have, it is rusted beyond repair.

Darksyne, I thought the sending unit was actually inside the gas tank (its the level sending unit, right?). I think I only need to get the top cap thats shown in the picture (this isn't the sending unit, right?). I thought this was the fuel pump bracket, as mentioned in one of the messages above. I'm going to send an email to mistubishi graveyard and ask for a cost on that part. Thanks for the advice on cost, I know they're asking too much, I'll try and get it for around 100-120 canadian, that way I can get it sooner, and hopefully get the car running today or friday, depending on how long it takes them to pull the old one.

I'm re-reading the message you sent, so lemme try and make sure I'm clear on the nomenclature: The level sending unit has a section inside the tank which has a float on it to send the level of gas in the tank to the fuel gauge, and the other half of the level sending unit is the top part (so the fuel pump is actually encased INSIDE the sending unit)? Or are we applying the name sending unit and level sending unit to two separate parts? Sorry if this sounds dumb, I just got a little confused by your metion of me getting a new level sending unit, because when I called lucky star I said I needed a new fuel pump bracket, which is what they quoted me for...220 for the pump bracket and pump, and 150 for the bracket alone. I just want to make sure that the pump bracket they're quoting me for is the unit with the hard line I've been showing pictures of. I wouldn't want to drive all the way down there to find out they pulled the wrong part.

 

[Darksyne]

I'm re-reading the message you sent, so lemme try and make sure I'm clear on the nomenclature: The level sending unit has a section inside the tank which has a float on it to send the level of gas in the tank to the fuel gauge, and the other half of the level sending unit is the top part (so the fuel pump is actually encased INSIDE the sending unit)?

Sorry for the confusion, I've been referring to the round metal piece you can see with the integral fuel hardline as the sending unit because it is all one piece. So really the whole metal piece with the exception of the fuel pump is what you need. Here is a picture of it with the fuel pump already removed:

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The hard line that is broken on yours goes straight down to the fuel pump with an o-ring sealing the connection.

If you take a look at the Fuel Pump Install VFAQ you can get a good idea on how these parts go together. http://www.vfaq.com/mods/pump-WB-1GAWD2-print.html

 

[pcons]

Perfect, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks again.

 

[Darksyne]

Perfect, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks again.

Your welcome

 

[pcons]

Just wanted to post an update here. My car is alive again :laugh: I actually didn't buy anything did it for about $20. I'll post pics when I get a chance, but I'm pretty happy with the results. I replaced the rusted bolts in the top of the gas tank by drilling through, then setting new bolts from the inside by sandwiching some jbweld betwen the bolt/washer and inside top of the gas tank, then I replaced the hard line from the sending unit with some 3/8" copper plumbing line. Soldered it to the inside portion of the hard line which was still fine, cut the old rusted connection to the rubber fuel line and made a new connection, bent the copper wire and sealed the top of the tank where the new copper line was coming out with solder and some jbweld. No leaks, its working fine now, and all for around $20, but with 2 days work. Either way, since all the bolts to the top of the sending unit were rusted, I checked underneath and the same thing with the bolts holding the tank, so it would have taken me forever just to remove the gas tank and mount the new one in. Either way, I'm pretty happy, I'll post pics of the after, it looks much better than the before. I also cleaned up the top of the sending unit, removed all rust, and applied a rust converter, then painted the whole thing to hopefully prevent these parts from rusting again. Now, when I get around to it I've got to get working on the idle surge I get occasionally, its weird because it doesn't happen all the time, either way that's a topic for another thread.