Need info for a turbo setup

[esikidjay]

Ok so I been looking at the forums for awhile now and just came a new member today and I want to go turbo! But I don't really know that much about the dsm world. Just looking for help and info on what I will need to be able to turbo my 98 talon esi no internals or anything just header intake and exhaust which all that wont matter since the turbo will be replacing it so if someone can help me out with a list of all the parts I would need from fuel setup to engine mods. Not looking to BOOST alot im just looking for around 8psi just for that extra little kick. So if anyone can help me out with this i would greatly apreciate it. THANKS!

 

[esikidjay]

Also do I need to do anything to my ecu? I was told I did but most forums I have read have yet to mention a ecu upgrade and if so does anyone know where I can send mine to get what it needs for the upgrade? thanks

 

[tkelly27]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...uild-420a-stage-2-turbo-kit-under-1000-a.html

That covers a whole lot of things. It's a little ghetto, but if you are dealing with the stock 420a bottom end it will give out before you reach the limit of nearly anything in that write up. If there's something in there that got skipped or you don't understand be sure to come back.

 

[esikidjay]

Ya I have looked over that thread before and have actually had my bro as well look it over and we both have been trying to find out what a fcd is? but that dont say anything about the ecu? does that mean nothing is needed to be done to it?

 

[tegster1]

fcd = fuel cut defender...there are a few people that make these and cost around $30 I think is what mine was. A MUST have as once you hit boost, your MAP sensor will see the positive pressure and you will hit fuel cut. An FCD clamps this voltage to a set number so it doesnt matter if youre in boost or not.

No, you will not need to do anything with the ECU.

But that thread explains everything you want unless you go a different route such as front mount instead of side mount or having an external wastegate. There are MANY MANY MANY threads on what parts to pick and what all you need for a custom kit or going the route of HAHN or etc.

 

[esikidjay]

Thanks for the tip on the fcd! But is there much of a diffrence between fmic and smic? I thought it was only location i didnt believe there was much diffrece with parts? As you can tell this would be a first car with a turbo for me.

 

[tkelly27]

$30 for a FCD?! HA!
DDG- Map sensor trickery

Also, something you can experiment with, the 2 bar map sensor will put out the same 0-5v signal as the 1bar map sensor you currently have. If you get a junkyard 2bar map sensor out of a turbo dodge (anything dodge or plymouth from '84-89 with a turbo) and double the size of the injectors you may be able to get away with using an AFC. This would be risky, but it works for turbo dodges when we go from a 2bar map to a 3bar with 40% bigger injectors. You can put around town and use fuel pressure to tune WOT. NOT saying this is safe or a good idea, but fuel cut defenders and rising rate regulators are equally hokey.

Technically a side mount put in the front would be a front mount.
Intercooler Theory
there's a ton of info on IC's, but what it comes down to is the IC's ability to flow and ability to cool. It's going to be a custom plumb job either way, so you should decide on if you think you'll be building a monster bottom end, or if you want a big 'ol front mount to show off. If you are trying to do it on a budget, pretty much any IC you can find out there will be ok with the stock shortblock (I'd stay away from volvo and SRT-4 IC's though).

 

[esikidjay]

ok so your saying the fcd wont work? but that one link how to build a turbo for less then a grand is using one? and he didnt mention anything about injectors. but i kinda am on a budget Im pretty much trying to get a turbo going off of what i got from insurance from someone vandalizing my talon so its under a 1500 dollor budget tell i at least get my next check anyway

 

[tkelly27]

Fuel cut defender blinds the ECU to manifold pressure above atmospheric (any boost). That means it's using the same pulse widths at 0psi that it is for all other boost levels from there on out. The FCD alone will destroy your engine. To compensate for this, the author of the how to ran a FMU, or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.

A standard fuel pressure regulator keeps the fuel pressure a static amount above manifold pressure. If static is 45psi, then at 20psi of boost the fuel pressure will be at 65psi.

DDG- Fuel system parts
Scroll down to rising rate regulators. The rising rate has an increase in fuel pressure based on an increase in boost. Static is at 45, 20psi of boost, 1.5 ratio, the fuel rail pressure will be at 75psi.

Why this works: At higher than rated pressures injectors will flow more.
RC Fuel Injection

Why this is stupid: the ECU has no idea what is going on and can not compensate timing for boost, fuel pumps quickly run out of flow capacity at such high fuel pressures. Fuel injectors start to have different opening charichteristics at such high relative pressure levels too.
RRE Instructions

Honestly I'd rather see you run cold start injectors than a rising rate regulator. People must still use RRR's, because they sell them, but there are much better options.

 

[esikidjay]

ok so if im understanding you correctly your suggesting just get bigger injectors and dont mess with the fcd? or am i missing something

 

[esikidjay]

so if im understanding you correctly your saying dont mess with fcd ### it will pretty much blow my motor but instead get bigger injectors and it should work better? or is there something else im missing ### i love my talon but if this turbo is going to cost alot of money to get running right idk if i will keep it

 

[tkelly27]

If you add more fuel, a FCD won't blow your motor. How you do that is up to you, there are a lot of tricks you can do. The rising rate regulator works. Cold start injectors are real ghetto, just injectors that get turned on with pressure switches. They've worked on some fast cars, but they are far from ideal. There is also portfueler which is like $500. There are probably even more ways to get more fuel in while keeping the map blind with a FCD.

There are ways of skipping that and keeping the ECU in control, and there are cheap ways of completely replacing the ECU. I can't hold your hand and tell you which is best for you, you need to dig up some info on tuning and figure out what you're ready to jump into. You can easily ruin an engine with any tuning, some give you more control and information than others.

If it were me, I'd try out a 2bar map and bigger injectors with an AFC, but I've never heard of anyone doing anything like that. I can explain the concepts, but it's not a sure deal.

It's either going to be easy and cost a lot, or it's going to take a lot of work and not cost a lot.

 

[totaleclipse_05]

I would not advise going that route. Stick with the tried and true method of the stock injectors, walbro 255 HP pump, and 12:1 FMU if you are planning on running low boost (8 psi and lower). If you ever plan on running more and rebuilding your engine, check out Megasquirt.

You can't just throw on a different MAP sensor (2-bar, 3-bar, etc.) and expect it to run good, you will probably be running pretty high timing if that is your solution and can make your engine go ka-boom if you are not careful. I wouldn't take the risk.

 

[esikidjay]

Alright so just stick with the walbro pump and 12:1 fmu and everything should run and work fine?

 

[tegster1]

Well...its supposed to work "fine" but thats all up to the installer. Assuming your engine is in good health and all parts are working and installed correctly then yes that combination will work just fine. But, you still need the fcd. Buy it and be done.

 

[rstare]

Tkelly... this is the 420a section don't start blabbing a bunch of false info. While alot of what your saying is right it pertains to the 4g63, not the 420a.
The basic 420a turbo setup (12:1 fmu and 8 psi boost) increases fuel pressure not pulsewidths to get more fuel into the cylinder.
It works time and time agian, many people have been running it for years.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Also, something you can experiment with, the 2 bar map sensor will put out the same 0-5v signal as the 1bar map sensor you currently have. If you get a junkyard 2bar map sensor out of a turbo dodge (anything dodge or plymouth from '84-89 with a turbo) and double the size of the injectors you may be able to get away with using an AFC. This would be risky, but it works for turbo dodges when we go from a 2bar map to a 3bar with 40% bigger injectors. You can put around town and use fuel pressure to tune WOT. NOT saying this is safe or a good idea, but fuel cut defenders and rising rate regulators are equally hokey.

Tom, these tricks may work with turbocharged Dodges, but keep in mind that 2.0L 420A DSM's, Neons and Avengers were all N/T from the factory. Their ECU's were programmed with mechanisms to protect against faulty sensors or mechanical mishaps by cutting fuel if they sense pressurization in the intake manifold. The solution is not as simple as replacing the MAP sensor and an FCD is required in almost all cases.

 

[Flipboi89]

Dont forget about your engine. Make usre you have a healthy engine test your compression ratios.

 

[esikidjay]

ya the motor is in great shape we just reciently rebuilt it and as far as compression goes it should be fine i completely rebuilt the whole motor well me and my brother did who is a certified mechanic runs like a champ... So 12:1 fmu and i should be good? sounds fair enough guess I will be turbo in the next month or so thanks guys!

 

[esikidjay]

alright guys i started purchase for the turbo... got the pump, fcd, and fmu, as suggested! and for the turbo setup I decided i want to do it all right the first time and not have to mess with cutting pipes and all tell me what you think!

I found a turbo/intercooler kit (bolt on) for: 320
Hks ssqv bov: 170
Manual boost controller: 30
cast mani/oil like kit/turbo/wastegate t3/t4 38mm 7psi spring: 500
walbro 255hp pump: 100
Turboxs universal fcd 5v signal: 100
12:1 fmu: 65

Thats it so far if anyone can also help me out with finding a down pipe? I mean a site that will fit my 420a talon 98. I really dont want to mess around with shops but if not thats fine. But Im excited about this build! I will be the only 420a TURBO in DES MOINES Ia that I know of right now my cars getting painted and I hope to have the Down pipe at least ordered before I get it back so All help is welcome thanks!

 

[tenn-gsx]

What type of turbo/intercooler did you get for 320?

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

What type of turbo/intercooler did you get for 320?

+1

 

[esikidjay]

it wasnt the turbo itself it was just the turbo piping and intercooler but it was a precision speed one same one my buddy has been running on his gsx for over a year now... well not the same kit but same brand... we ordered it off ebay

 

[Mike431635]

Try to find a used Treadstone dp or you will have to go custom. Really depends on what turbo you run though, as the treadstone has a 5-bolt flange. Remember to get new spark plugs, a step colder than stock. New gaskets too.. exhaust manifold, turbo to dp, and wastegate.

 

[Mike431635]

But jesus h christ, $100 for an FCD? Symtech sells em for half that!