MAF-T on N/T

[TORONTOTALON]

I was wondering if the maf-t and gm maf will fit on a 1g n/t I heard it can be done but the description was terrible so i was wondering if anyone can step up to the plate on this one and tell if it can be done and how it would be done

 

[dsmchips]

Mechanically and electrically, yes, it should be easy. BUT, when I look at the difference between a 1G Turbo and a 1G Non-Turbo MAS compensation map, it look like it would be difficult to tune. At idle, 25-50 Hz, they are within 2% of each other. But, at 100 Hz the Turbo MAS is flowing 9% more air, ramping up to 23% more air than a NT MAS at 1600 Hz. But, since your ECU has the stock NT map, it will not multiply the Hz by enough, and you will be very lean up top. If you're going to try it, you have 3 choices:
1) use the Turbo injectors, FPR, and chip. If your NT ECU is an EPROM, it would be as simple as installing the 1991-1992 E931 chip. However, then you would have to suffer with the overly rich and retarded timing maps.
2) If you have a NT EPROM ECU, modify the 21-byte MAS map at 7BB2 to match the 1G/MAFT MAS. You should also change 5446 to 5E 86, so that the ECU multiplies the Hz properly to select the right A/F and timing maps.
3) Third choice is: don't use the GM MAF at all. If you're going to get involved in modifying the chip, why not just use the better 3G Eclipse MAS instead? I particularly recommend the #482 MAS found on the variable induction GTS Eclipse, and most 3.5 liter Monteros. I have one on my daily driver GVR-4, and it is a big improvement in performance, mainly due to the lack of restriction/pressure drop. AND, the size is exactly the same diameter as a 1G MAS.

 

[TORONTOTALON]

Mechanically and electrically, yes, it should be easy. BUT, when I look at the difference between a 1G Turbo and a 1G Non-Turbo MAS compensation map, it look like it would be difficult to tune. At idle, 25-50 Hz, they are within 2% of each other. But, at 100 Hz the Turbo MAS is flowing 9% more air, ramping up to 23% more air than a NT MAS at 1600 Hz. But, since your ECU has the stock NT map, it will not multiply the Hz by enough, and you will be very lean up top. If you're going to try it, you have 3 choices:
1) use the Turbo injectors, FPR, and chip. If your NT ECU is an EPROM, it would be as simple as installing the 1991-1992 E931 chip. However, then you would have to suffer with the overly rich and retarded timing maps.
2) If you have a NT EPROM ECU, modify the 21-byte MAS map at 7BB2 to match the 1G/MAFT MAS. You should also change 5446 to 5E 86, so that the ECU multiplies the Hz properly to select the right A/F and timing maps.
3) Third choice is: don't use the GM MAF at all. If you're going to get involved in modifying the chip, why not just use the better 3G Eclipse MAS instead? I particularly recommend the #482 MAS found on the variable induction GTS Eclipse, and most 3.5 liter Monteros. I have one on my daily driver GVR-4, and it is a big improvement in performance, mainly due to the lack of restriction/pressure drop. AND, the size is exactly the same diameter as a 1G MAS.

Wow good input seems like alot of work the main reason i want this is to make a real cai without having to put the mas outside the engine bay but if anyone else has any other ideas on how i can make this work let me no

p.s. i wouldnt no how to do that stuff to my ecu neways how do i no what i have?

 

[dsmchips]

Here is how to tell if you have an EPROM ECU:
http://www.tmo.com/howto/ecu1g/checkeprom.htm
But, even if you don't, EPROM-type ECU's for a NT are fairly obtainable.

 

[TORONTOTALON]

How hard is it to change that chip? Where would I even be able to find that chip that you are talking about in Option 1? from looking at your first post i think the best way to go would be option 1 because i can get everything from a wrecked turbo other then the chip what way do you think would be the easiest and give me good results?

 

[timloomis]

wouldnt the turbo mas just be pulling in more air because of the turbo?i mean thats what a turbo does,just more air is all.ive wondered this too,but i see punishment racing doesnt offer the nt maft anymore and i want one for my swap.ill be using 550cc rx7 injectors,so no chance of leaning out with a stock turbo on 14 or so psi.i have a datalogger so i can see what my mas is doing if that will help us figure this out.im also worried about that 7th wire to the mas,that the maft uses.ive heard its for the fuel cut circuit,but i may be wrong.

 

[TORONTOTALON]

Well my thoughts are that if i were to go option 1 then i would get more air and more fuel but you would have to suffer with overly rich air/fuel ratio but i figure i could put in a msd dis-2 ignition and i wouldnt be flooding the engine not to mention the throttle responce you would get with these things

so is it possible to add:
3" GM mas, Maf-t, Turbo injectors(with resistor box), Turbo fpr, 1991-1992 E931 chip, MSD DIS-2, and a custom cai on my 91 talon n/t

If this would work could you imagine the power gains if you did this all at once it would be doing a cai, performance chip and ignition all at once AMAZING

 

[timloomis]

youll still flood out.the msd box just controls spark,not fuel control.with all you do,its just like a turbo engine without the turbo.youll need an afc or some other fuel controller to use 390 or 450cc turbo injectors since the stock n/a ones are 240cc.youd gain a little throttle response from the msd box,but you wouldnt notice because youd be shoving so much fuel into the engine,it would run so crappy,if at all.

 

[TORONTOTALON]

You could tune the air/fuel with the maf-t

 

[timloomis]

yup

 

[TORONTOTALON]

So this can work it would just be harder to tune and you would have to buy all thoes parts ?

So what exactly does that chip do that DSMCHIPS say i have to replace in my ecu what does it control?

 

[timloomis]

i say screw it and just splice in the maft and go from there.you have a datalogger?youll need to know if your rich and lean.if you go with those options,youll have several hundred in parts,and you just might as well go with dsmlink for 1g's or aem ems.because if you chip it,change injectors,and etc,you have half a turbo swap already done,just minus the engine/turbo.from what i understand,the maft can add/subtract fuel just like an afc would,just not as fine.and as far as chips,thats just the cpu for the turbo ecu.u just might as well get a turbo ecu and wire it in than change cpu chips.hell of a lot easier and no soldering a board either.

 

[dsmchips]

Well, thats sort of what I was trying to say, but, as you can see, I sort of talked myself out of it after recommending option #1. The E931 maps are intended for a turbo car, so they will be overly rich and pull too much timing for a NT car.
I honestly can't recommend using the MAFT as is for an NT car, because the NT ECU is expecting a completely different fuel curve, as I said. It would be next to impossible to tune.
I've done several custom NT chips, and ALL of them involved replacing the MAS compensation map to get the A/F curve correct.
The extra wire on a turbo MAS is "Reset". It resets the MAS's airflow counter when you suddenly leave off the gas. I doubt it would make much difference if you didn't connect it. I don't even think the MAFT supports that extra wire, but I'm not sure.
If you'd like to try the 3rd option, the 3G MAS, let me know. I could send you one I have, along with a chip compensated for it. I think its the best option for cars making <400 HP.

 

[FireyIce01]

If you just want to make a real CAI, why don't you just relocate the stock MAS up next to the throttle plate? You don't need to put an aftermarket MAS/MAF in if all you want to do is move it... it's the restriction that they have (esp in turbo apps where we're flowing 2 or more times as much air as an N/A application, depending on boost) that merits the aftermarket or GM MAS/MAF.... just a thought if you don't want to do a bunch of conversions and are just looking to put in a cold air setup

 

[defrag010]

Or you could get a mitsu distributor off of a mid-late 90's ford festiva to replace your CAS, and spend the 300$ on a Megasquirt to replace your stock ECU and have a complete standalone with spark and fuel control running speed density without having to worry about a MAS at all.

 

[timloomis]

id just like to know how punishment racing made their n/a maft.they said they "adapted" it for n/a use,but they dont say how.personally,i think it would work cuz all it does it convert sensors.but somebody needs to do some research on this.with different chips,the 3g mas,and the maft.

 

[TORONTOTALON]

I sent a mess to Punishment asking how they adapted it and i have no answer yet all i want to know is how they made there maf-t