Journey of 1000 miles begins with a ton of questions.

[SuLeche]

Hey there, brand new and highly intimidated member here. I'm tired of letting my Dodge SRT-4 buddy do all the driving, so I'm making my first foray, and I think I'm doing it with DSM. I thought it was going to be simple at first, just find a 2g GSX and call it a day, start saving up for mods and tuning.

But after hours of reading here and on another forum, my brain is about to get crankwalk. I'm seeing that I might want to swap out for a 1g 4g63, since they're stronger and seem to have less troubles. And then I see that a turbo on a 4g64 2.4L might be better, and help me "cheat" my insurance, too. But then one person said he could use a 100mm crank and bore his 2.0L block to approach 2.5L. And now I'm reading about engines being pulled out of '91 Expos that technically aren't 4g6x at all, and whether to go with 6 bolts or 7, and on and on...

To make a long story short, I've discovered way more information than I can take into consideration at once. I went from being confident to having no idea where I should start and where I should go. I can only hope you guys can have mercy on me and get me pointed in the right direction.

What I eventually want in a nutshell is a head-turning daily-driving workhorse. Something that'll make Mustang #101 or Civic #207 (hell, maybe a Porsche or two) stare while I pull him 3+ carlengths on the freeway. Something that'll take me to class during the week and to shows on the weekend, racking up 13s in the 1/4, then 12s, and ultimately 10s (God willing, maybe even better) after a long and winding road of money, practice, and tuning.

Please correct me or elaborate as necessary, but this is roughly the foundation of knowledge I'm working from...
-----
'95 or '99 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - The one we all know and love, this was the first one to hit the list. These are quick right off the lot, and the stock performance applications means further modding is relatively cheap and easy. A 1995 would make me exempt from emissions inspection in my area, so I could mod without care, but the age might be an issue. A 1999 would be newer, but I'd eventually have a problem on my hands every year at inspection time. AWD might give the drivetrain a beating, but I think the good outweighs the bad. Learned all about crankwalk while I was at it. If this is the route I go, you can be sure I'll be back with tons of questions about the 6-bolt swap...are the 1g engines really much better?

'95 or later Mitsubishi Eclipse GS - After reading an enlightening post, apparently you can find a 5-speed manual GS with the 4g64, swap out some 4g63 components, and now you have a 2.4L turbo engine instead of 2.0L, and you've "cheated" on your insurance. But, I'm assuming that you totally give up AWD on this route? How viable is this? How would your new, bigger post-factory turbo-ed GS stack up against the GST or GSX? I imagine that many after-market upgrades were meant for the 4g63, so how would this affect your ability to mod into the higher horsepower ranges and faster 1/4 times? Finally, can this swap be performed between 2g and 3g? Is this 4g64 only found in spyders? If so, what are the consequences of the added weight of the convertible mechanism?

All that is notwithstanding what I just recently found that talks about a g4cs or g64b. And there's a rumor that the srt4 engine can be moved over.
Like I said, now with all the information I've found, I don't know my ass from my elbow with regard to where I should begin, what I should buy first (GST, GSX, GS...), what I should plan to buy next (stick with 7-bolt 4g63, 1g 4g63, 4g64, one of the other motors mentioned...) and so on, though I do realize that level of work is a looong way off for me no matter what.

I only know two things with relative certainty. 1) Until someone makes some brilliant argument otherwise - and at this point I'm sure someone will - I do want AWD. Perhaps that will narrow things down, for what it's worth. 2) I do want to go DSM. I may be at a loss to make any further decisions, but the depth of possibilities with these cars seems to be endless. After all my reading thus far, I'm as fascinated as I am confused.

Somebody straighten me out.

 

[Endz0r]

just get a GSX and call it a day.

 

[Gigaah]

You have to start somewhere. IT all depends on your time and money. If you looking for a 2G go buy a GSX. swap to a 6 bolt if you have time and money. If you still have money in your pocket after adding up cost for a 6 bolt swap you can stroke the 4g63T to 2.3L. I don't know too much about it other than it involved the crank and a new oil pan or something. I'd personally die of bliss if I ever get up the nerve and money to stroke a 4G63T. Talk about turbo spooling, pavment pounding, AWD goodness.

 

[SuLeche]

Thanks a bunch, Endz0r and Gigaah. That clears the air for me some, puts it in a bit of perspective.

Now I'm reading that some people like a built 420a over the others. My guess is that I don't even need to think about this, as that's a moot point for anything but 2WD.

Am I overthinking? You bet. But better to overthink than under, yeah?

 

[iwantawd]

you seem pretty overwhelmed man.... you should first read through www.vfaq.com and that 1000 faq section.

you need to decide what year you want. anything from 5/92 and newer will have a 7bolt and you should swap a 6bolt into it at some point if you're looking to build it and race. its just a smarter investment.
i think you are confused between the 420a and the non turbo 4g63. both come from fwd cars so they would have to be built and dropped into a gsx. stay away from the 420a, just forget about it. the 4g63 is the same exact engine as the 4g63T except for oil squirters and pistons i believe. a lot of people rebuild 4g63's because they can be had for cheaper and some feel the oil squirters are worthless, although i don't.

the 4g64 in spyders are exactly the same engine as 4g63's but have a 6mm higher deck and the crank has a longer stroke. (someone correct me if im wrong). these differences account for the 2.4liters as apposed to just 2.0.

read through the website i linked then come back with any questions
and yes, get a gsx

 

[SuLeche]

Wow, that was a lot of information. I get the feeling I'll be spending many an hour pouring over that from day one. Nice to have such a wealth of information to work with.

I'm beginning to get things straight in my mind. Thanks for the commentary thus far. Now, I have five new things bugging me now, for which we'll assume a '99 GSX.

1. A friend of mine had this thought . Would it be feasible to mod a 2g 4g63, using it until the crank walked or some similar impasse, then just remove my mods and reinstall them on a 1g block, effectively picking up where I left off? Or is that stupid?

2. Following a 6-bolt swap, would I refer to the FAQs, upgrade tree, and parts for a 1g from then on? Is the only marked difference (besides some of the internals being made from better stuff) the fact that it's just 6 instead of 7 bolts? Would it matter in that case whether something I read, used, or installed was labeled for 1g or 2g?

3. Would I be well served to find an EPROM ECU if I'm not lucky enough to have one to begin with? This is assuming that my eventual goals include stand alone engine management. Should I find a 1995 EPROM ECU so as to use DSMlink, or would that even work after the 6-bolt swap?

4. Where would the 6-bolt 4g63 come from? Yes, money would be the biggest deciding factor, but assuming I just saved until I could afford to go the best route, which would be best? A donor 1g car? A refurbished engine? One that's already fully built from a specialty shop? This is also assuming that I'd definitely like to stroke it and whatnot, as Gigaah mentioned.

5. What would you want to do with that spare 2g 4g63 you've got now? Sell it off, or part it out and sell it off, trying to make some of your cash back?

A lot of questions, I know. Thanks again for your patience. Maybe after a few more days of this I can claw my way out of noobness.

 

[JessesTalon]

I think you want a 2g awd right now, but I think you will be more happy (in the long run) with a 1g awd.

You have done a good job reasearched, if you want AWD I suggest start out with a 1g. when you get tired of it switch the motor over to a 2g shell.

 

[Nanan]

Alot of us 2g owners drive the car till the 7 bolt blows then swap in a 6 bolt. Not all 7 bolts crank walk tho, many of us have hit 150k miles on ours with out CW.

I would suggest going with a GSX/Tsi Awd, you will never want to go back to a fwd car again.

 

[project_tsi]

yeah a 1g awd may be a better choice, if you dont like the popups try finding an early 92 w/ the 6 bolt and the much stronger 4 bolt rear end, youll be set then!
FWD+Power=Spin, Spin, Spin...
AWD+Power=Go, Go, Go!

oh by the way ive seen a 95 7 bolt engine go 212,000 miles. the only reason we replaced it was because we wanted to add some mods and just didnt want to chance it with that many miles on a 7 bolt, but it had no signs of CW and it was still running pretty strong.

 

[SuLeche]

Would it be better for me to start new threads on the appropriate boards for a couple of the other questions above?

 

[GeneralChaos]

you got a better chance of pulling 3+ car lengths on a porche with a FWD car, but with enough mods the awd will still do it.

13's arent that hard to do if thats whats going to make you happy, dont bother with the 6 bolt right yet.

Id say the 6 bolt is that much better then the 7. much smaller chance to crank walk (take note that the possibility of crankwalk is still there on ANY engine, 4g63 or not) and the connecting rods are stronger out of the box.

If you have a lot of money id say get a 99 gsx, but you can also get a 95 to get out of emissions and then do a conversion, although the title will still say its a 95. If your broke id say get a 1g but you might be like me and like the 2g body style better.

throw the 420a idea out the window, its pointless.

whether to get a 2.0 or a stroked 2.4 is really a huge debate, theres tons of threads on it, right now im going the 2.0 route but I make sure to find those old threads to make sure its what I want to do.

As for running the 7 till it blows, you could do this but there is a posibility that it takes out some of your mods with it, but then again your 7 bolt may never crankwalk, contrary to popular beleive not every 7 bolt is destined to walk.

As for the upgrade tree after a 6 bolt swap I dont think it will really matter, it doesnt get so far to discuss internals, the only thing that will be significantly different is when to upgrade the turbo. Do plenty of research before you buy things, youll figure out your own path.

The 6 bolt you can find in the trader, ebay, junkyard, parts cars...plenty of places. If you do a full build up and know what your doing you can just buy a bare block and save some money.

When I finally do my swap im going to sell whatever I can off the 7 bolt since I have no need for it.


I hope this answered a lot of what you wanted to know, my best advice to you is RESEARCH A LOT. I sit on here all day at work and im still far from knowing everything. You can get a bit overwhelmed at times and thats ok,just step back and take a breath, take a break and think about things, make sure you understand it all before moving on. After a while you will realise you make/think working on cars is a lot more complicated then it really is. Dont be afraid to ask questions since everyone has a brain fart now and then and asks something stupid, you probably dont really know anyone here in real life so dont sweat what they might think of you.

and dont jump into this head first, decide what your end goals are and research the best way to get there. do it once and do it right. dont buy a crappy turbo just to have it now when you know your going to replace it later. get your entire car planned out and work from there. Ive changed what mods I want countless times and still do to this day, but I almost have it figured out. Doing it this way however may require buying chunks of mods at the same time (IE getting a trans needa clutch and flywheel as well, or DSMlink I should get the fuel system at the same time, etc.)

Good luck.

 

[SuLeche]

Wow, thanks. That clears up a number of things.

So the 1g and 2g motors are otherwise alike then? I know there's a debate over whether to use the 1g or 2g head, so those are different, and the exhaust manifolds are apparently different. Anything else? Any upgrades that would be specific to a 1g or 2g, and couldn't be moved over in the case of a swap or killed engine?

Second, it looks like the thing to do is to find an ECU out of a '95 (EPROMS, DSMlink) and have it set up to work with any 2g car, but would there be a compatibility problem if I swapped out to a 1g engine?

Shockingly enough, I think those are my very last questions until I get my hands on the thing.

 

[EcliptikIlluzio]

It all comes down to what 'YOU' want to do. First of all it looks like you are aiming for the 2g body style. I have a 1g and I like 1g's better but that is personal opinion. Lets say you get a 2g. Get your mods and all for the original motor first. There is nothing saying that you 'WILL' crankwalk. Many have had no problems and are running 12's 11's and even 10's. Some are not so fortunate. If you did have CW sometime then get a 6 bolt block(all 90 and 91 2.0 motors an early 92 2.0 motors.....note the 1g had the 1.8L as well). All of your mods will swap over. You can keep the stock 2g head but the 1g flows better all around. Like I said depends on what you want.

If you want to be more practical I would get either a early 92 (6 bolt motor and 4 bolt rear) or a 91 AWD. The 90 is considered bi*** cars (which I have) because of the electrical differences. Nothing bad about the 90's but it is kinda hard to find 90 stuff like the coil packs and what not. I think the 1g is more sportier looking as opposed to the 2g but I would own a 2g if I had the opportunity. It is all personal flavor. Also 1g was my first car . Also keep in mind though that with an older car you are likely to have to replace small things like I am right now. Things like boots, vacuum lines, and anything that will tend to dry rot and crack due to weathering and age.

Eprom ECU allow reflash to provide better maps and such. Definately try to get one if you plan on going any faster than 11's. Easier to tune and whatever.

All the 1g and 2g 4g63 motors are same with the exception of minor electrical issues which almost all have some sort of workaround to make them work just fine.

Good luck and keep us updated. Keep asking away questioncause how else will you learn? If someone gets cocky and whatever ignore them.....there are plenty here who would be more than glad to help without an attitude.

 

[EcliptikIlluzio]

Wow, thanks. That clears up a number of things.

So the 1g and 2g motors are otherwise alike then? I know there's a debate over whether to use the 1g or 2g head, so those are different, and the exhaust manifolds are apparently different. Anything else? Any upgrades that would be specific to a 1g or 2g, and couldn't be moved over in the case of a swap or killed engine?

Second, it looks like the thing to do is to find an ECU out of a '95 (EPROMS, DSMlink) and have it set up to work with any 2g car, but would there be a compatibility problem if I swapped out to a 1g engine?

Didn't catch this before I sent the previous post. If you swapped to a 1g engine in a 2g then you are good to go if you keep the 2g related sensors and stuff. Keep in mind that a 2g is OBDII whereas 1g's are OBDI.

 

[theSicKness]

my 2g tsi has origonal motor 170k miles no crank walk :\
but personaly if i had a choice id go w/ the 1g awd or 2g awd there right all i do is spin

 

[98eclipseRS]

Wow general chaos very very very good post by far the best one so far in this thread.


now, suleche, first thing you need to do is take a few steps back and take a breather. I can see you are already way overwhelmed by the amount of information being proccessed by you and trying to figure out your whole game plan right away will just lead to huge problems. Here is my suggestion on how to go about this.

First thing first forget about buying a n/t dsm and then adding a turbo, you will have many problems that far outweigh the benefits. Second decide whether you want awd or fwd, this is completely up to you to decide. Some say fwd some say awd and the debate goes back and forth back and forth. It really depends on what you use the car for and what your goals are. If you are using this as your daily commuter that you take to the track on ly a few times a year then I would seriously consider buying a fwd only because it really saves on gas. Other than that I will not offer my opinion on what is better becasue this thread will explode into a flame fest.

Now after you figure out what type of drivetrain you would like I would really consider getting the older car. If you plan on modding your car extensivly not having ot deal with emissions will be great(trust me I live in cali). Then find a car and look, look look an dlook and as many cars that you can before you decide on the one you want trust me the perfect one is out there but you are most likely not going to find it first car out. After all that is done before you even consider doing any mods, even as small as a boost gauge and intake filter, drive the car for a month or two and get a feel for the car. See if it has any weird things that are either normal or abnormal. Learn how to drive it, you can have all the mods power in the world but if you don't know how to drive it you are going to break things and not run good times.

After you get a feel for the car now its time to start modding. The best thing to do is evaluate your goals and go from there, remember mod right mod once...mod wrong mod twice. Your choice of mods and in what order are going to completly depend on wha tyou want out of the car...300hp 400hp? 13's 12's? for how long? daily driver? Noone here can make that decision for you. After you figure out how far you want to go with the car make a game plan that oulines your mods in what order they are going to be purchased. After the few basic bolt on mods you are going to have to buy in boundles so to speak.

The first "mod" to buy for your car is a tune up, change all the fluids in the whole car, check all belts. replace any that look worn or damaged. Next do any recalls on the car that have nto been done already. If you want the car to be reliable you have to make sure its in moddable condition before you start throwing things at it. After all this you are finally finally able to mod the car. First thing to buy a a gauge pillar pod(or your choice of gauge mounting solution) and a boost gauge. I would then buy an exhaust, full 3" turbo back with no cat. sure it may be overkill for the t25 but anything more will need all the flow it can get. Then its time to buy a boost controller, manual or electric its all up to you. If my car didn't come with an ebc to begin with I would have just bought a manual boost controller no big deal to get out and turn a knob but hey its your car. I would then look at the drivetrain by this time the stock clutch is probably not loving life(especially if you are awd) so I would upgrade clutches, what you go with is your choice but I love my act 2600 and have really never heard any complaints about it from other dsmers. If you are fwd and have some coin to spend I would invest in a good lsd while you have the tranny out, no need to pull it twice to get to the same area.

After this is where mods start to get tricky, your turbo decision plays a role on the rest of the mods you choose after this. Rule of thumb though if you even would consider going with a larger turbo that what you might buy in the immediate future buy mods that are overkill. Sure 550cc injectors might be fine with the 16g you have now but what happens if you decide to go to a 50 trim you are going to need much larger injectors. 680cc injectorrs would work fine with the 16g as well but give you much more room to upgrade later(not telling you what to get just giving examples). So from here on out all the mods kinda come in boundles. In order to get the most out of any turbo you are going to need more fuel, that means larger injectors and fuel pump..but you also will need some sort of fuel management to controll them. For the short term I suggest going with just an afc, they cna be had for cheap and your not going to be ready for full stand alone right away. Unless you are going to go with a fmic that used the stock intercooler pipe location(like the greddy or apex) don't bother buying upper anc lower intercooler piping because they will be tossed once you buy a fmic with short route piping. Then its all down hill from here, choose your turbo bolt it on and get some tunnign done and you could easily have a 400hp daily driver(I do, but it costs alot to get there).

Well now to address some of you other concerns, As far as the 6bolt 7bolt goes..yes the 6bolt is a better engine BUT it is not neccasary to swap it out right away. I had 92k on my 7bolt running 25 psi daily and it still runs strong, infact it is now in my friends car and he has had no problems with it what so ever. REally, the only reason I swapped in a 6bolt was because I got a deal I just couldn't pass up so I went for it, it that deal had not come up I would still be rockign the 7 botl for sure. Now this will probably piss some people off but I would stick with a 2L. You can make tons of power on it, it has been proven and then someand it allows you to rev higher utilizing a much larger power band. You don't really have to worry about crankwalk as much as people make it seem. Crankwalk has become a scapegoat for all the 2g owners who #### up their own cars and don't want to take responsibility...don't get me wrong some 7bolts do but much less than people lead on. I feel like I have left some stuff out so feel free to ask more question if you have any there are pletny of knowledgable people in this community and you seem to be catching on quickly which is good. I wish I had done my research before buying one of these cars instead of jumping in head first it owuld have saved me alot of time and money but you live and you learn.

 

[SuLeche]

I do prefer the body style of the 2g, but I'd say the main thing is I'm hoping to find one which I put the 100,000th mile on it myself. Doesn't really make a difference, I suppose, just personal preference. Also the newer it is, the better the odds that it's been maintenanced well for its lifetime, and that I won't have to suffer with taking care of the recalls.

"Early 92," you say? What's a way to tell it's an early '92 and not a late one?

Edit: Was replying the same time as 98eclipseRS and missed it.

Wow, thanks a lot. This really helps, I'll definitely be keeping all this as a .txt. In a way I'm glad I've got a ways to go before I can afford to pick one up (not to mention finding one). It'll give me a chance to let all this sink in.

I've pretty much decided on AWD, and though I fully realize it's going to be a very long road, eventually I'd like to participate in NOPI Race Wars, if that's some indication of my goals.

 

[EcliptikIlluzio]

I do prefer the body style of the 2g, but I'd say the main thing is I'm hoping to find one which I put the 100,000th mile on it myself. Doesn't really make a difference, I suppose, just personal preference. Also the newer it is, the better the odds that it's been maintenanced well for its lifetime, and that I won't have to suffer with taking care of the recalls.

"Early 92," you say? What's a way to tell it's an early '92 and not a late one?

Edit: Was replying the same time as 98eclipseRS and missed it.

Wow, thanks a lot. This really helps, I'll definitely be keeping all this as a .txt. In a way I'm glad I've got a ways to go before I can afford to pick one up (not to mention finding one). It'll give me a chance to let all this sink in.

I've pretty much decided on AWD, and though I fully realize it's going to be a very long road, eventually I'd like to participate in NOPI Race Wars, if that's some indication of my goals.

You should be able to look on the VIN or the door and tell. Basically look in www.vfaq.com to get visuals on how to tell the difference in the 7 bolt vs 6 bolt. The oil is different so all you would have to do is to look under the car at the oil pan and voila you will know right off the bat. Also look at the rear to see if the hubs are 4 bolt square shaped or 3 bolt triangle shaped.....again vfaq is your friend.


Also noticed you are in NC. I am in SC. When you are ready let me know. I know of several places to look for AWD cars.

 

[siceclipse]

Wow everyone, you are all doing a really good job. This should be a sticky for newbs to read before they make their first stupid ass post, and get flamed to all hell.

Anyways, yes its a lot of info to take in, but please bare with us and you'll make it out of here with a fast freakin car. Good luck and WELCOME TO THE BOARD.

 

[GeneralChaos]

Wow general chaos very very very good post by far the best one so far in this thread.

So go I think I deserve some reputation points! (haha yea new smilies)

Anyway about the act clutches not to get off topic but people have said bad things about them. They work well but it seems something on them keeps breaking for people. I think it got to the point where many are/trying to get a lawsuit.

either way a lot of good info in this thread and it helps a lot of newbies, I had hard times finding good all around noobie threads when I first came here.

And not to be a @$$ but the search button really will be your best friend, just gotta sift through crap and learn the best things to put in the box (I still suck a searching this board somethings though )

best of luck to ya.

 

[EcliptikIlluzio]

So go I think I deserve some reputation points! (haha yea new smilies)
best of luck to ya.

. I have to look into that ACT clutch issue. I have NEVER had any problems with mine but then again I don't have many hard launches on it either. I am FWD so hard launches are pointless unless I wanna break something or put on a smoke show.

 

[SuLeche]

Oh yes, between this site, VFAQs, and a couple other linked pages, I spent a grand total of 9 hours just on the night before last going to DSM school. I know noone loves a newb who won't do his own footwork, so I've been trying hard not to ask questions that could already be answered with a little effort on my part. I hope I haven't blurted too many questions that've been run ragged.

Edit: By the way, thank you EcliptikIlluzio, I'll definitely take you up on that. I can already tell just finding her is going to be an adventure. Is it nice living in Myrtle? I like to take holidays out that way whenever I can.

I'm much obliged to everybody. You'll never know how much I appreciate the handholding thus far.

 

[EcliptikIlluzio]

I guess it is. I really don't know been there my whole life. It is nice to have everything right there and in the summer it rocks! Just let me know when you are ready and I'll keep my eyes peeled. BTW I know of a potential FWD but send me a PM to discuss that......don't wanna have the mods jump all over me.