I cant believe it! Fully built, $7500, 700 miles, and CRANKWALK!!

[Jaybone]

Damm i dont even want to drive my car any more.... and i find myself really listening for somethin when i drive... paranoia has set in! When i need a clutch i think im going to take it to my local Mitsu Dealership and let them do it... At least i know they will warranty any probs.. (i think)..

Also if the 98-99's have a slighty diffrent set up that are less prone, can we copy that set up in our 95-97's??

 

[Blue97GST]

Originally posted by Jaybone
Also if the 98-99's have a slighty diffrent set up that are less prone, can we copy that set up in our 95-97's??

It's not worth it... I just talkes to an owner of a 99 GS-T that walked. Bottom line is that all 7 bolts are garbage and not worth building

 

[Jaybone]

Well how many 95-99 get it.... it is possable that one might never CW?
out of the all the turbo ones what do you guys think the % of them (95-99 turbo) get CW?

Alot of my friends have Eclipses 1G's 2Gs Turbo and Non-Turbo, all diffrent years and milage, auto/manual... and i dont know a single person that got it.... Figure that out....

 

[Blue97GST]

Yeah, from what I've read only a small percentage get it. I had 95,000 miles on my 97 GS-T and there was no play. But it seems like once the engine has been opened, it's like a gazillion times more likely to walk! That's why my motto is if you have a 2g, run it till it walks and maybe it never will. But, if you're going to build an engine internally, build a 6 bolt.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Yeah, from what I've read only a small percentage get it

Actually, it is pretty high and getting higher and higher with each month. I think that with time, 70-80% of 2g's will succumb to crankwalk...

Basically, it is a matter of "when" rather than "if"

Another thing that I have noticed, the more you worry about crankwalk, the more likely you are to get it . So I do agree with your motto.


Leon
RR

 

[tjh-dsm]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
>Yeah, from what I've read only a small percentage get it

Actually, it is pretty high and getting higher and higher with each month. I think that with time, 70-80% of 2g's will succumb to crankwalk...

Basically, it is a matter of "when" rather than "if"

Leon
RR

That number is SO FAR OFF it's not even funny. Try multiplying that percentage by .1 and you'll be much closer. It's not a matter of 'when' it's a matter of "if" your engine was assembled to proper tolerances from the factory and everything aligned properly.

It's crap like this that scares everyone from buying a 7-bolt. I do agree that they walk a lot more than the 6-bolt or 1g 7-bolt, but it is no where NEAR your numbers........

 

[GRNDSM]

>It's crap like this that scares everyone from buying a 7-bolt. I do
>agree that they walk a lot more than the 6-bolt or 1g 7-bolt, but it is

Right ON! Like I said before, the best way to avoid the crankwalk is denial .

>no where NEAR your numbers........

Did you realize that did not give ANY numbers?

Leon
RR

 

[BrnOutKing]

Talking to some company's tecks'...around here - in there experience they've seen more 1G's crank walk then 2G's go figure

My experience:
I have a friend 95 Talon AWD crankwalked the week he bought it.(used from a lady driver)

I almost bought a 95 AWD eclipse - that had Crankwalk (seller knew but didn't tell me.... thank god i went with a different car)

I have 2 friends with 1G AWD's that got Crankwalk.


So to recap almost all owner of AWD's I know have Crankwalk.

And almost all Owner of FWD's have major tranny issue's?
I'm personally going on my 6th tranny. (needs rebuild)


But all in all I don't think it's as common as you'd think.
Brent Rau won't build a 7 bolt block because he fears CW.

and when I asked him about building he said by a 6 bolt instead.

What does that tell you? who knows?
I personally don't think my car will CW - but I could have just jinxed myself. Anyways I got a new bottom end in 99 (dealership paid for it) so I might be lucky....

as far as how I drive my car? - 6 tranny's should answer that.
I drive it hard.... when I race I shift right at rev limiter.

I feel my car's been tested - racing every weekend for 2 years and still going strong.

 

[tjh-dsm]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
>It's crap like this that scares everyone from buying a 7-bolt. I do
>agree that they walk a lot more than the 6-bolt or 1g 7-bolt, but it is

Right ON! Like I said before, the best way to avoid the crankwalk is denial .

>no where NEAR your numbers........

Did you realize that did not give ANY numbers?

Leon
RR

If you want exact numbers do your OWN damn research. I did, and that's how I know your "figures" are way off. Try asking a few knowledgable mods around here (mabye Black95GSX?) about this 70-80%, bring your ear muffs though cause I'm sure you won't wanna hear their response.

I hear there's a river in Egypt called Denial...or something.

 

[GRNDSM]

>If you want exact numbers do your OWN damn research. I did,

Oh, you did? Then what are your figures AND your sources?

My “figures” are a mere prediction that in 4-5 years 70-80% of all 2G’s will come down with crankwalk. This is based on all of my years of DSM experience, crankwalking a couple of 4G63’s and spending countless hours talking to people who have crankwalked motors.

I thought that I made it very clear to be just a prediction from a club member. But apparently you thought that I was stating some hard facts. Look, you do not need to buy into it if you do not want to. But I will advise anyone buying a 2G to bargain-in a price of correcting potential crankwalk problem. I realize that this advise devalues your car by $3-4k, but that is my opinion…

>I hear there's a river in Egypt called Denial...or something

Well now, that is original…

Leon
RR

 

[BlackDSM97]

I have a 7 bolt and had cw but a local shop did a few things to a busher stage 3--see pic---and dropped in je pistons and crower rods and 1st gen squirters and 9K miles later no cw, granted its on stands right now getting ready for a new clutch, but then again if ya aint breaking stuff you aint drivin fast enough
albert
btw the pic is of the crankshaft cradle modified by removing the middle section of the cradle to allow for less tension and load upon the main bearings--and if for wahtever reason it does walk again I just have to pop off the oil pan and untorque the cradle and remove and insert new main bearings--
initial built up----$6500
remove oil pan---free
fixing crankwalk for $18.00----priceless

 

[cead]

generally in engine rebuilding classes i took in tech school and dealer training, crankwalk is ususally caused by insufficient lubrication, excessive vibration, and or excessive thrust play. i'll tell you the truth, most builders don't get anal when checking clearances and out of round when it comes to bottom ends. i send all my engine work to an older machinist. he's about 46 years old and has years of experience in building engines. i asked him about crankwalk in general and he told me that cranks as well as cams bend over time and you gotta change them when they exceed tolerances. he also said that two bolt mains don't last very long under race conditions. he reccommended using an oil sump to pre lube the engine before starting and that it would last twice as long as if it were started at no oil pressure. i'm curious to know if anyone has changed the oil pump and still experienced cw? i also heard some dsm tuners have developed main cap bushings and beefier thrust bearings. i'm also curious to know if anyone has experienced cw after using these crankwalk 'deterrents'. also i'm curious to know if people are re-using main studs and nuts. most bolts in any modern engine are torque to yield bolts and must be discarded since they stretch and should not be reused.

 

[GPTourer]

My “figures” are a mere prediction that in 4-5 years 70-80% of all 2G’s will come down with crankwalk.

In four to five years worth of driving that amounts to 50-60,000 additional miles or more for most people on cars that on average all ready have that much or more, making the cars at least 9 years old. Saying that most of them will need a rebuilt engine isn't exactly an earth shattering prediction. Mitsubishi warranties the engines for 5 years and 60,000 miles and sent them out with 210hp. Most of us have raised that figure 30-50% a few of us even more. If I get 350-375hp or so out of my motor on stock internals and a good 80-100K miles before it needs a rebuild with on and off daily driving and a few trips to the drag strip then I feel I have gotten my money's worth.

 

[GRNDSM]

>In four to five years worth of driving that amounts to 50-60,000 additional
> miles or more for most people on cars that on average all ready have that
> much or more, making the cars at least 9 years old.

Right, about where 90-91 DSMs are right now. How many of them come down with NATURAL crankwalk (by “natural” I mean something that did not follow a rebuild)?

>Saying that most of them will need a rebuilt engine isn't exactly an
>earth shattering prediction.

So not only do you agree with me, you think that it is so obvious that it shouldn’t be stated. OK, I buy that .

>Mitsubishi warranties the engines for 5 years and 60,000 miles and
>sent them out with 210hp. Most of us have raised that figure 30-50%
>a few of us even more. If I get 350-375hp or so out of my motor on
>stock internals and a good 80-100K miles before it needs a rebuild
>with on and off daily driving and a few trips to the drag strip then I
>feel I have gotten my money's worth.

You are missing the point here… Crankwalk is a NASTY problem, it effects even bone stock cars. And unlike blowing holes in the pistons (sign of severe abuse), you can not fix it by rebuilding a motor.

You will be hard pressed to find a reputable DSM shop which would rebuild a 7 bolt motor… In now days, they all prefer 6 bolt conversions.

Leon
RR

 

[GPTourer]

Right, about where 90-91 DSMs are right now. How many of them come down with NATURAL crankwalk (by “natural” I mean something that did not follow a rebuild)?

I don't know. I thought that was the question you/we were trying to answer. It must be less, but that could also be due to the fact that there are more 95-99 turbo DSM's on the road then 90-94's. The car's popularity ramped up considerably with the new bodystyle. We musn't allow that to skew our figures. Also, the rate of CW is probably higher amongst enthusaists because of our modifications, I think, the rate of cars that just did it around 12-30K were just flukes I guess, don't know.

You will be hard pressed to find a reputable DSM shop which would rebuild a 7 bolt motor… In now days, they all prefer 6 bolt conversions

I can't confirm or deny that, but most engine builders only give a 12 month or less, or none if the application is a racing motor any wether its 6,7 or anything. Money talks.

From what I've read, no one seems to really know what causes CW, but from talking to my own mechanic, I've determined that no DSM motor is immune to it 6 or 7, so the answer still eludes us all.

 

[GRNDSM]

>It must be less, but that could also be due to the fact that there are
>more 95-99 turbo DSM's on the road then 90-94's.

I am not sure that, last two years (98-99) only 15% of cars were turbo, out of which 5% were AWD. Where as vast majority of 90-91 cars were AWD. But by now, many 1Gs have hit the junkyard to the ratio is evening out.

>The car's popularity ramped up considerably with the new bodystyle.

This is only true for NTs…

>We musn't allow that to skew our figures.

Dude, you can’t skew the fact that there are at least 20 2G’s crankwalking to each 1G…

Leon
RR

 

[GPTourer]

I am not sure that, last two years (98-99) only 15% of cars were turbo, out of which 5% were AWD

I will try to produce sales figures for you, but until then I hope you understand that a percentage of a larger number is more then that of a smaller one. Show me/us total figures on production so you back up your claims.

This is only true for NTs

Wrong...another subjective opinion, not a fact.

Dude, you can’t skew the fact that there are at least 20 2G’s crankwalking to each 1G

Dude, I am open to any discussion, but simply saying there is 20+ to one ratio without any hard numbers to back it up isn't going to impress me or change my mind.

 

[GRNDSM]

David,

You must be a relatively new Mitsu owner. In 98-99 it became painfully obvious that both Chrysler and Mitsu (USA) completely lost any interest in selling turbo and AWD sport sedans.

When 2000 Eclipse came out Mitsu used low sales figures of turbo and AWD models (15% and 5% respectively) as an excuse to drop 4G63T motor and AWD platform. That was a bogus argument, as they sold 100% of Turbo and AWD cars that they manufactured for the domestic market with doing almost NO ADVERTIZING! Never the less, that was a commonly quoted figure printed in just about EVERY article on 2000 Eclipse.

Please do some research and correct me if I am wrong .

Leon
RR

 

[GPTourer]

No, I'm not disputing your numbers of 15% turbo and 5% AWD, but the total number of Eclipses/Talons sold during the 95-99 model year is higher then the during the 90-94 period. I think it would be worth it for someone to find out exactly how many 1g turbos there were produced compared to 2g turbos, I maintain that the 2g's outnumber the 1g's and it is possible that that skews any CW estimates, that's ALL I'm saying. I don't have the answer, just a possible symptom.

When 2000 Eclipse came out Mitsu used low sales figures of turbo and AWD models (15% and 5% respectively) as an excuse to drop 4G63T motor and AWD platform.

Now that's funny, we're sitting here talking about what you describe as a NASTY problem, and your saying Mitsu needed an ecuse to drop the motor. How about high warranty claims and diminishing returns as a reason for the change? BTW, the 3G outsells the 2G (which in turn outsold the 1G) FYI.

That was a bogus argument, as they sold 100% of Turbo and AWD cars that they manufactured for the domestic market with doing almost NO ADVERTIZING!

Now that's also funny. Mitsubishi's brand recognition has gone up considerably since the '96-98 model years, back when people didn't know if we just sold televisions or responsible for the planes that attacked pearl harbor, now we're the number one import brand for gen x and gen y. But even during the dark ages, the one car that people recognized would be the Eclipse, even if they couldn't name anything else we sold. The reason I say "we", brings me to my next point.

You must be a relatively new Mitsu owner. In 98-99 it became painfully obvious that both Chrysler and Mitsu (USA) completely lost any interest in selling turbo and AWD sport sedans.

I've been selling Mitsubishis for three years and although I agree that they did make a rapid changeover in the '99-'00 model year, it wasn't because they "lost interest." All the turbos went away and now all our cars have SOHC heads, but the company was in dire need of making money. High maintenance intensive, difficult to produce low volume sports cars aren't the answer when your company is bleeding red ink. The Montero Sport, the Galant, The Eclipse and the Lancer are all doing well which is going to make it possible for them to bring the Evolution here...


But I digress and all that is way OT. My only point again is this. I think your 20 to 1 ratio of CW 2g's to 1g's is bogus. I think there are more turbo 2G's on the road then turbo 1g's. I think all DSM are capable of getting CW. I think if someone is going to find an answer, it will have to be a Mitsubishi engineer because no one over here as proven that they can. And lastly, there are pros and cons to both enigines and I think the Evolution engine will show us how it is done.

 

[GRNDSM]

>I maintain that the 2g's outnumber the 1g's and it is possible
>that that skews any CW estimates,

OK, I do not have any “formal” numbers right now, but how about this:
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55410
760 votes is a sizable sample and it represents the types of people from who WE (DSM enthusiasts) tend to hear about crankwalk.


>Now that's funny, we're sitting here talking about what you describe
>as a NASTY problem, and your saying Mitsu needed an ecuse to drop the motor.

They (Mitsu of NA and ChryCo) dropped interest in our cars in ’97, before the extent of crankwalk problem was truly known. As a matter of fact the only reason why ChryCo sold ANY ’98 Talons was because they were obligated to Mitsu under a contract to buy a certain number of cars. Talons were the only ’98 cars in Eagle line-up and if it was up to ChryCo, there would not have been any of them.

Incidentally, this was right around the time when we (Club DSM) really pissed off Mitsu/ChryCo by convincing NTSB to force a Transfer Case safety recall. That must have cost them many millions of $$$ and they let it known that they held us responsible for it… As if it was our fault that their engineers screw-up and then, they were trying to deny any responsibility (there were some fatalities). We went to NTSB as a last resort…

>I've been selling Mitsubishis for three years

So… You are a part of the problem… . Lets put aside the fact that Mitsu dealer are probably the least knowledgeable people who ever had to deal with DSMs (the only people who were worse, were Eagle dealers…) and the fact that you never actually sold any new Turbo or AWD DSMs. I will give you benefit of the doubt, as there are exceptions to any rule . But this must explain your very strange outlook at 1G vs 2G sales. You see, 1G cars were sold mostly through ChryCo (Talons and Lasers) and outnumbered Eclipses. This trend changed since 2g’s were introduced. So if you were to compare the number 1G Eclipses to the number of 2G Eclipses, then you would be right, there are more 2G Eclipse. But this would be an incorrect way of looking at it…

>I think your 20 to 1 ratio of CW 2g's to 1g's is bogus.

Again, where have you been hiding? Almost all DSM shops have accepted 1G in 2G as the best cranwalk fix.

>it will have to be a Mitsubishi engineer because no one over here as
>proven that they can.

It appeared that Mitsu engineers found the problem when they changed thrust bearing design in ’98. Unfortunately, they did not many ’98-’99 cars, so their rate of crankwalk is somewhat unclear. What is interesting is that all of “new” motors that you can get a dealer’s parts dept, are actually remanufactured units (that is right, you can not buy a NEW 4G63T) and they all have 98-99 style thrust bearings. So with time, the number of the new style thrust bearings is actually going to increase.

Leon
RR

 

[tjh-dsm]

Originally posted by GRNDSM

OK, I do not have any “formal” numbers right now, but how about this:
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=55410

So… You are a part of the problem… . Lets put aside the fact that Mitsu dealer are probably the least knowledgeable people who ever had to deal with DSMs (the only people who were worse, were Eagle dealers…) and the fact that you never actually sold any new Turbo or AWD DSMs. I will give you benefit of the doubt, as there are exceptions to any rule . But this must explain your very strange outlook at 1G vs 2G sales. You see, 1G cars were sold mostly through ChryCo (Talons and Lasers) and outnumbered Eclipses. This trend changed since 2g’s were introduced. So if you were to compare the number 1G Eclipses to the number of 2G Eclipses, then you would be right, there are more 2G Eclipse. But this would be an incorrect way of looking at it…

Leon
RR

So, you have no FIGURES, yet you give me crap b/c I have no figures right here handy at my side. DO SOME DAMN RESEARCH. You might find something.

And as far as people working at Mitsu being part of the problem, that is just ignorance at its best. I know of TWO people who work at Mitsu who helped make the dealers realize that CW was a problem and got the dealer's to warranty it. Yes, it is a problem but you just admitted you have not figures, so your just going on hype and hearsay. Get some knowledge from credible sources and then make your own decision, but don't tell me to hand you all the info on a silver platter; if it matters to your find all the facts yourself, I did. Sorry I didn't save every damn link and file to give to you.......

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by tjh-dsm


So, you have no FIGURES, yet you give me crap b/c I have no figures right here handy at my side. DO SOME DAMN RESEARCH. You might find something.

And as far as people working at Mitsu being part of the problem, that is just ignorance at its best. I know of TWO people who work at Mitsu who helped make the dealers realize that CW was a problem and got the dealer's to warranty it. Yes, it is a problem but you just admitted you have not figures, so your just going on hype and hearsay. Get some knowledge from credible sources and then make your own decision, but don't tell me to hand you all the info on a silver platter; if it matters to your find all the facts yourself, I did. Sorry I didn't save every damn link and file to give to you.......

The people at Mitsu are the problem. Plain and simple. I am not talking about the trench workers (The sales guys, the mechanics, etc), I am talking the designers, the engineers, and most of all the Managerial staff. They are the problem and the reason this has gone on so far.

As far as numbers go, nobody has accurate numbers. We can only gather info on cases happening within the reaches of Club DSM. How many other DSM's are out there that don't know or don't care to know about Club DSM and the things we know? Little grandmas driving their 90 Laser, Middle aged guys with their 95's, etc etc etc. The point is, for ever 1 Club DSM member that knows about Crankwalk and knows to be wary there are an untold mutliple of owners out there that don't. So when their engine grenades because of a worn thrust bearing, they either scrap it, chalk it up to normal wear and tear, or just swap in a new engine and go on with their lives. They simply don't know any better. How in the hell will we know about those? The anwser? We won't. We can't.

Sooooo you can assume anything you want and no-one will be able to validate or contridict you point of view. You can take samples and take polls of Club DSM members, but don't think that this is a valid cross section of all DSM owners.

 

[GRNDSM]

>DO SOME DAMN RESEARCH. You might find something.

You know what? Do not need to worry about this. I am done with 7 bolt motors. And I will recommend anyone else to do the same. And I will leave it at that.

>And as far as people working at Mitsu being part of the problem,
>that is just ignorance at its best. I know of TWO people who work
>at Mitsu who helped make the dealers realize that CW was a
>problem and got the dealer's to warranty it.

First of all, do you know what a smiley face after a sentence mean? Perhaps not…

Second, I even admitted that there are exception to every rule.

Third, we do not call them SATAN for nothing…

>so your just going on hype and hearsay.

Almost everything you read on Internet beards is just that, you have to know who to listen to.

>don't tell me to hand you all the info on a silver platter; if it matters to
>your find all the facts yourself, I did. Sorry I didn't save every damn
>link and file to give to you.......

Again, I DO NOT CARE! I no longer run 7 bolt motors… I am just sick of hearing statements like: “I bought a 2G 6 month ago and it is now crankwalking”. I recommend treating every 95-97 turbo DSM as a ticking time bomb and would not buy one with out accounting for it. I am sorry if you feel like that this is a put down to your car.

Leon
RR

 

[GPTourer]

They (Mitsu of NA and ChryCo) dropped interest in our cars in ’97, before the extent of crankwalk problem was truly known. As a matter of fact the only reason why ChryCo sold ANY ’98 Talons was because they were obligated to Mitsu under a contract to buy a certain number of cars.

I've already been through this. It doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. I think the number of 2G turbo DSM's outnumbers 1G turbo DSM's, no matter what brand name is on the outside. Plus it goes further then that since there are 1G's with 7-bolt motors. Mitsu needed to produce a cheaper less maintenance intensive vehicle with better quality, so they bought out Chrysler's share of the plant and began producing SOHC Galants and Eclipses with V6's and now their margin has grown.

So… You are a part of the problem… . Lets put aside the fact that Mitsu dealer are probably the least knowledgeable people who ever had to deal with DSMs (the only people who were worse, were Eagle dealers…) and the fact that you never actually sold any new Turbo or AWD DSMs. I will give you benefit of the doubt, as there are exceptions to any rule . But this must explain your very strange outlook at 1G vs 2G sales.

I am not a Mitsu dealer, I am a salesperson who happens to own one. Whether I've sold new turbo DSMs or not has nothing to do with it either (I have personally sold several used examples, none have CW'd). I don't have a strange outlook on sales, I've been to Mitsubishi product classes which have shown the increase of Eclipse sales over the years, with the highest output being the '00-01 years which were both at or over 80,000 units. what's your point? I didn't build or design your car and I do know what a smiley face is for, it usually follows something resembling a joke, as in humours or something.

Sooooo you can assume anything you want and no-one will be able to validate or contridict you point of view. You can take samples and take polls of Club DSM members, but don't think that this is a valid cross section of DSM owners

EXACTLY! Finally a voice of reason. You would have to compile a database of every turbo car ever sold and know its history to make the claims your making and you can't. All I was trying to do was point out that there were isssues that might affect the "numbers" everyone was throwing around.

 

[GRNDSM]

>>You can take samples and take polls of Club DSM members, but don't
>>think that this is a valid cross section of DSM owners
>
>EXACTLY! Finally a voice of reason.

Of course a cross section of any DSM enthusiast site will not be representative of the majority DSMs out there. But David said: “I maintain that the 2g's outnumber the 1g's and it is possible that that skews any CW estimates, that's ALL I'm saying”.

And all I am saying it that this is wrong…

That poll clearly indicated that among the DSM enthusiasts 1G slightly outnumber 2Gs. And that is where the ratio of crankwalking cars is roughly 20 to 1 (7bolt vs. 6 bolt). Before someone asks to document it, 20 to 1 is a rough estimate based on my experience with DSMs. The actual number can be as low as 10 to 1 or as high as 50 to 1.

My guess would be that this ratio is even worse when you ask your service department, because most 1G owners would not take their $2000-$4000 car to have dealer install a new short block (costing $3000-$4000).

Leon
RR