How strong do I need my trans to be

[omegis13]

Hiya,

For the first time EVER, I actually got to go to a DSM tuning shop (((Abel performance in OKC))). I got to talking with them about the fact that my baby needs a new trans, and that I was planning on buying a Shep stage III with upgraded shift forks. I told them that I do have goals of around 400 hp with a 50 trim, maybe 450ish with a wet shot of nitrous. Anywho, They informed me that the stage 3 is more than is needed, and that a stage I rebuild from either Shep or TRE would be sufficient for my goals. Is this true? I do plan on keeping this a street car, and I do tend to drive the piss out of my cars. In addition, I eventually plan on rebuilding a 2.3 and upping the turbo. I am damn near certain a Stage I will be far from sufficent then. Anyway, to shorten the question, is a stage I going to be appropriate for my current power goals, and if not, what is?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[larsrya8]

If you don't beat on the stock transmission it has been proven to hold over 600HP in some cases. If you abuse it, even the "highest level" transmission from Shep or TRE is going to break. If you really want to beat on it and have it survive, you should look at a dogbox. They can handle pretty much anything you could ever think of doing.

My vote is to keep the stock transmission and don't do anything to break it.... hard launches are good at breaking transmissions. Slipping the clutch while launching at a reasonable RPM (4500-5000 or so) will keep it happy.

 

[Quasimondo]

Hard, clutch-dropping, 7K launches are what can kill a transmission.

How often do you take your car to the track? That's an important question in determining whether you are fine with a stage 1 trans of if a stage 3 is really needed.

 

[omegis13]

Considering that I will be moving to within 20 minutes of Oklahoma's best track, I plan on taking her a decent bit. As for my launches, they tend to be around 5.5K with slipping (((running a fidanza flywheel, so a little higher rpm's help))). While driving around town, I tend to shift anywhere in the 3 to 4K range normally, and engine braking when slowing down. Deep down, I don't think that I am THAT hard on transmissions; clutches yes, but not the trans itself.

I have also been contemplating purchasing a VC eliminator if I were to get the four spider gear option as I do not really want to drive a welded center diff around town. However, this goes back to the whole discussion on whether or not I really need a stage III trans or not. I hope this helps to shed a little light on my driving habits.

Greg Heineken

 

[pboglio]

Actually, the tranny can see a pretty high load say in 3rd gear from a roll when the boost hits hard, since 3rd gear is much smaller in diameter than 1st or 2nd. Based on how you explained your driving style, you've got the possibility of wasting even an upgraded transmission. My advice, buy a second fresh tranny and keep it in reserve cause your gonna need it. That way your down time is minimal. Gotta love DSMs

 

[omegis13]

Actually, the tranny can see a pretty high load say in 3rd gear from a roll when the boost hits hard, since 3rd gear is much smaller in diameter than 1st or 2nd. Based on how you explained your driving style, you've got the possibility of wasting even an upgraded transmission. My advice, buy a second fresh tranny and keep it in reserve cause your gonna need it. That way your down time is minimal. Gotta love DSMs

Good point. I try to avoid racing from a roll for two reasons: 1) most cars I would race have an advantage at a roll. 2) Racing from a roll implies that I street race, and we all know that none of us do that

So yes, a reserve trans sounds like a good idea. Do you have any input as to what build strength will suit me? I have been eying the Shep stage III as it has a 4 spider gear center diff conversion. However, the guys at Abel Racing told me that a 4 spider gear can be weaker than a 2 spider in some cases? The housing I guess? They also advised me to stay away from the steel shift fork upgrade. They said that they really aren't that much stronger, but when they break, if a piece gets shot into the gears, it will do much more damage than a piece fom a broken aluminum fork?. Anyone with experience with this?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[fourreGsixty3]

The only thing I can say is shoot Shep a Pm he's on here...if you didnt already know that, and hey who would know more about tranny's in general then the man with the fastest AWD DSM, and owns a tranny shop + its his tranny that your thinking of buying so he of one of his people will know the awnser's to all your questions. The dogmission is a good idea, but mad expensive for us guys that dont have sponsores(sp?) they just beg to be beaten on, and are proven to take it.

 

[larsrya8]

Once you get your tranny squared away, you have to get ready for all the other drivetrain parts to go.

Just learn to be nicer to your car. It's cheaper.

 

[omegis13]

We're going to try to be. I may have to ask the guys at Abel Racing for some pointers on being "nice" to transmissions. I am a highly agressive driver, so it will take a bit of time for me to reteach myself. As for the transmission, does anyone have any idea about the shift fork and center diff stuff that I was told at Abel Racing? It would seem kind of odd that if these things were possibilities, then why would all dsm tranny shops offer them as options?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[AHALLA05]

Well I think the stage three tranny from shep would be perfect for you based on your setup.First off would be your horsepower. 450 horsepower would be around 11`s in the 1/4 mile which is kind of what the stage three is recommended for. Second your going to want the 4 spider center diff for the same reason you said u didnt want the welded(daily driveablilty issues). I dont understand how they figured the 4 spider would be weaker than a 2 spider considering it has 2 more spider gears?yes the case is machined but not near enough to affect its strength. Next would be the steel shift forks which I would deffinately opt for. Not only for the strength of the steel over the aluminum ones but ask john how often he has had one of his steel shift forks break.Like I said before I believe that this tranny would be perfect for you setup and once youve shifted a shep trannny you would never go anywhere else.

 

[omegis13]

Well I think the stage three tranny from shep would be perfect for you based on your setup.First off would be your horsepower. 450 horsepower would be around 11`s in the 1/4 mile which is kind of what the stage three is recommended for. Second your going to want the 4 spider center diff for the same reason you said u didnt want the welded(daily driveablilty issues). I dont understand how they figured the 4 spider would be weaker than a 2 spider considering it has 2 more spider gears?yes the case is machined but not near enough to affect its strength. Next would be the steel shift forks which I would deffinately opt for. Not only for the strength of the steel over the aluminum ones but ask john how often he has had one of his steel shift forks break.Like I said before I believe that this tranny would be perfect for you setup and once youve shifted a shep trannny you would never go anywhere else.

THANK YOU!!!!

Just the info I was looking for. The guys at Abel Racing know that I'm poor as ####, and I think this is why they were trying to sway me away from getting more than a decent rebuild, but some of the things they said, mainly about the center diff and steel forks not being much stronger than the aluminum ones, really didn't make a whole lot of sense. The only other thing I was wondering is if Shep uses the normal nylon padded forks or if he gets them from TRE with the bronze pads.

Thanks a million,

Greg Heineken

 

[AHALLA05]

Im pretty sure he dont use the nylon padded forks from TRE. Ive actually heard bad things about those forks. The pads are two pieces held together with tiny screws and after enough wear on the pads it wears the screws and eventually breaks them apart. I think shep has his own steel shift forks made from a one piece steel design which has his name stamped into each one of them.
"Sheptrans Chromoly steel shift forks -
Description:
Custom investment cast chromoly shift forks with no pads to wear out or fall off."
^Found this on his sight^

 

[Turbocharged]

I have the TRE equivalent of of the shep stage I. My car puts down about 400 whp. If I could do it again, I would get the spider gears. Most of the stage 2 and 3 upgrades are for people who hit high rpms.

70,000 miles on the transmission without a problem.

 

[AHALLA05]

"Turbocharged" might I ask why you decided to go with the stage 1 tranny rebuild with 400 horsepower? The first thing in your transmission to go with that kind of horsepower is going to be your center diff after continous hard launches. Yes it might hold up fine for you right now but I wouldnt push your luck by repeatedly launching your car at higher rpms. I was also wondering why you believe that the stage two and the stage three rebuilds are recommeded for higher rpms. None of the upgrades in either the stage 2 or 3 are made for higher rpm shifting? Instead they strengthen the tranny for harder shifts and strengthen the center diff for harder launches. The only upgrade to help with higher rpm shifting would be the double synchro 3/4 which is included with the shep stage 4 rebuild.

 

[pboglio]

Asking what level tranny to buy depends on your EXACT driving style and your financial situation. I have a Stage 4 "equivalent" without the spider gear upgrade. I broke it anyway at maybe 320 wheel torque. I don't EVER launch, I NEVER speed shift, don't even know what a drag strip looks like. I broke it in 18,000 miles of street driving. The shear number of WOT pulls from a roll contributed greatly to wasting my tranny. It should have held 500 h.p., it didn't even hold 360 h.p. Was it a bad tranny, NO. A stocker probably would have folded after the 1st month of driving. I learned that every tranny has a limited number of pulls, I found that limit.

If you are a merciless driver with 450 w.h.p., not even a STAGE umpteen tranny will last a year. If a WRC team can't make a $40,000 dogbox tranny last longer than multiple stages of racing with a similar power output, how is a DSM tranny going to? These WRC teams carry 2-3 trannies in reserve per race, even their dogbox trannies fail.

What I'm trying next is a dedicated tranny oil pump and tranny oil cooler. Its been done before and people swear by it. Alot cheaper than an annual tranny rebuild. Cheers.

 

[green92gsx]

Im pretty sure he dont use the nylon padded forks from TRE. Ive actually heard bad things about those forks. The pads are two pieces held together with tiny screws and after enough wear on the pads it wears the screws and eventually breaks them apart.

A pair of steel rails are where you want to envest the money in. Tre custom makes there replaceable wear pads for there evo forks in house. He doesn't use the screws anymore also.

 

[omegis13]

What I'm trying next is a dedicated tranny oil pump and tranny oil cooler. Its been done before and people swear by it. Alot cheaper than an annual tranny rebuild. Cheers.

Can you provide any links to a decent setup? I figure if I'm about to drop $2K on a transmission alone, a nice tranny cooling setup would be a safe investment.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[pboglio]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39652&highlight=dre+transmission

"Dre" did it, do a search on him.

 

[omegis13]

I followed read the post, and what Dre did is not posted on it, only a link to another post on Team NABR's board. I do not have access to Team NABR's forums. Can someone possibly post the info from there onto this forum?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[dsmsucks]

If you don't beat on the stock transmission it has been proven to hold over 600HP in some cases. If you abuse it, even the "highest level" transmission from Shep or TRE is going to break. If you really want to beat on it and have it survive, you should look at a dogbox. They can handle pretty much anything you could ever think of doing.

My vote is to keep the stock transmission and don't do anything to break it.... hard launches are good at breaking transmissions. Slipping the clutch while launching at a reasonable RPM (4500-5000 or so) will keep it happy.

dogbox
Whats that, a super tranny?

 

[Turbocharged]

"Turbocharged" might I ask why you decided to go with the stage 1 tranny rebuild with 400 horsepower? The first thing in your transmission to go with that kind of horsepower is going to be your center diff after continous hard launches. Yes it might hold up fine for you right now but I wouldnt push your luck by repeatedly launching your car at higher rpms. I was also wondering why you believe that the stage two and the stage three rebuilds are recommeded for higher rpms. None of the upgrades in either the stage 2 or 3 are made for higher rpm shifting? Instead they strengthen the tranny for harder shifts and strengthen the center diff for harder launches. The only upgrade to help with higher rpm shifting would be the double synchro 3/4 which is included with the shep stage 4 rebuild.

When I purchased the transmission, I wasnt expecting to build a 400 hp car.

I hadn't looked at the shep transmissions for some time. I thought the double synchro 3rd/4th were included in the stage 2 and 3, but they are not. Actually, my basic TRE build contained most of the parts in the stage 2. I didnt get upgraded shift forks because I dont like to physically hammer the gears; thats asking for trouble.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

Well if you don't shift really hard and fast, and you slip than dump the clutch, you will be perfectly fine.

DUMPING = Kills tranny
Slipping = kills clutch/flywheel

Pick one .

 

[Lottaboost]

Save your $$ and go with a stage 1 and learn how to drive so you won't break it.

I have a GT35R and a 2.3 and making a lot more power then your car will see and all I have is a basic rebuild from TRE with a 4 spider center diff. It's been in the car for about 30K or so and there is nothing wrong with it!

 

[larsrya8]

dogbox
Whats that, a super tranny?

http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/transmissions/dsm.htm
http://www.sheptrans.com/stage5.php?vid=dsm

Searching would've yield information as well. They are advertised as the strongest gearset available for the DSM.

 

[omegis13]

So can anyone help me out with the transmission cooler setup? I've searched the forum, and all I've gotten back was a link to a NABR post that I can't get to.

Greg Heineken