how off is my alignment?

[PsSsShTGSX]

ok i have the stock specs, and my specs from today. here are mine. if you need me to post the stock specs for a gsx let me know. just looking to see if i need a camber kit both front and rear like they say. btw i have an eibach prokit.
thanks,
chris

left front
camber: -1.3
caster: 3.6
toe: -0.5

right front
camber: -1.6
caster:5.1
toe:-0.04

Front
total toe: -0.08
steer ahead: -0.01

left rear
camber: -2.1
toe: -0.01

right rear
camber: -2.1
toe: 0.06

Rear
total toe: 0.05
thrust angle -0.03

 

[jtmcinder]

Because your toe is near zero, you shouldn't have a tire-wear problem. However, the car would handle better if you shimmed the rear camber down to about 1 degree. The car would also be more stable under braking if you had a tad of rear toe-in, instead of a tad of toe-out, but it will turn better as it is.

Also, you can press out and flip the left front compression-arm bushing to get near-equal front caster, if you wish. This seemed to help me to turn right, but that might be my imagination.

All-in-all, though, you can leave it as it is.

- Jtoby

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

well unless you made a typo in the front toe where it should be .o5 then I wold say it is "ok" but if not then it should be fixed.

Even though it is close to 0 it is NOT 0 and you should get them AS CLOSEto 0 as possible AND be equal on both side.

My toughts on camber.. well yeah you would want a little bit, maybe up to -1 degree but I think -2 and above are excess.

Just my .02

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

i def agree that my rear is the worse with -2.1 camber. i may just get a rear camber kit. my fronts are arent too too bad. although -1.6 on the front right doesnt make me too happy. but i think ill just go with a rear camber kit for now, as i am broke
thanks for the input guys.

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

so the front toe reading you posted are correct????

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

those are correct. -0.05 and -0.04

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

oh ok, cause in your original post you said .5 and .04 .. thats a big difference.

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

yes that would be a big difference. i would have a lopsided front end. haha. so is the recomendation to just get just a rear camber kit for now?

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

you may as well do the front also. They are cheaper anyway.

Plus you are gonna need to get it re aligned, so you may as well do it ALL at once.

a good place for camber kits are

GMP Performance.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by ECLIPSE4x4
you may as well do the front also.[/URL]

Why? What is this car used for?

If he autoXes, then, sure, get a kit to add another 3/4 degree.

If he drag-races, then, OK, get a kit to take out the same amount.

But if it's a street car, then 1.5 or so sounds just about right, especially after the rear is backed off to about 1 degree.

Keep in mind that a good front kit - by which I mean SP eccentric bushings - are a pain to install. That's why I ask Why?

- Jtoby

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

i do neither. car is just a daily driver. i may take it to the track once every blue moon, but thats about it. if i can get away with a rear camber kit, then ill do it.

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

Well I put my .02 in. You know why I did. Becasue it is was I went through.

just remember. I told you so.

OUT.

 

[Ballin' GS]

Originally posted by PsSsShTGSX
i def agree that my rear is the worse with -2.1 camber. i may just get a rear camber kit. my fronts are arent too too bad. although -1.6 on the front right doesnt make me too happy. but i think ill just go with a rear camber kit for now, as i am broke
thanks for the input guys.

You got that backwards dude. If you are going for in spec (talking about camber here) you have a limit of .88 degrees of negetive camber to be in spec in the front with a goal of .33 degrees. and in the rear you are barely in spec, but in spec. 2.17 degrees negative camber in the rear is the max to stay in spec. Buy the kit for the front, the rear you don't really need one but maybe the longer bolts with I'd say 2 washers would bring it close to perfect. If you were to buy a camber kit for the rear you would be wasting your money, when you really need it on the front. Trust me, these are the CORRECT figures, i have gotten about 5 alignments in the last year ( i get free ones don't worry i'm not paying 60 bucks a pop) and i have studied the tolerances several times to the point that i know them off the top of my head. If anyone posts doubting my figures, they are wrong i can email you the sheet with the spec figures if you want. Our cars call for a quite large amount of negative camber (1.67 degrees) in the rear. Keep in mind that we do have + or - .5 degrees of tolerance to stay in spec off the of 'perfect' alignment figures.

 

[jtmcinder]

A 2G with the alignment in spec is an understeering pig. Upping the front camber to about 1.5 degrees while keeping the rears around 1 is a good way to get the car to turn. And 1.5 degrees with zero toe will not hurt your front tires at all. And with the backs shimmed down to 1 degree, you can run the spec amount of toe-in and not hurt those tires much either.

Please understand that the secondary reason that autoXers and road-racers lower their cars is to get more front camber in a way that doesn't break various rules. Backing off from 1.5 degrees of front camber only makes sense if the car's primary purpose is drag-racing. If you know what not to do in a panic situation, then 1.5 degrees of front camber is safer than .75 degrees, since it has more turning grip.

- Jtoby

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

ok, i will do the home depot rear camber kit mod. but you a few of you are talking about perhaps not even needing a front, while ed and ballin are saying i should purchase both. i dont mean to make this a big fuss, but im broke as joke this month. my loan and insurance come out in the first week of april, so im strapped for cash for a lil while.

anyway my car isn't going to be an autocross beast, nor a track one. im just looking to get good tread life out of my tires. so the impression im getting is that i should just do the home depot mod to the back, and then get a sprint or ingalls kit for the front. while on the subject, did anyone ever hear of xtra range adjustable ball joints? this is what the garage wanted to sell me for 106 dollars x2 for the front and the shim kit for the rear is 48 dollars x3. im not going to get them, i was just currious.
thanks again,
chris

 

[jtmcinder]

Adjustable upper front balljoints are one way to get adjustable front camber, along with adjustable caster. Most of the time, these are overkill. You don't need any more (or less) than 4 degrees of caster and you can get the same range of camber adjustment from eccentric bushings (although you might need new pivots to get the whole range).

The shop might have suggested the balljoints because they are easier to install, because they might want to equalize your caster, and/or because they have heard of these and not the eccentric bushings. I prefer the latter for a variety of reasons. (And I equalized by caster by flipping the left compression-arm bushing.) But, most of all, as you've seen (above), I don't think you need or want to do anything to your front end.

- Jtoby

 

[Ballin' GS]

Dude how can you say that being out of spec in the front will not hurt your tires? He wants to have a street car with good wear on his tires, you aren't suggesting a good option for him. SPEC is the way for him to go. He said he doesn't care about autocross or anything, if he wants a street car then tune your camber to spec. 1.5 degrees when the upper limit of spec is .88 WILL make a difference on his tires, no matter what you say. Yes toe is the biggest killer of tire tread however camber WILL still put noticable wear on your tires, especially on the front. If you don't believe too bad i have the front tires to prove it, when i didn't have my front camber in spec.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Ballin' GS
Dude how can you say that being out of spec in the front will not hurt your tires?

Experience.

Plus a decent understanding of suspensions and what actually causes tire wear.

But, most of all, experience.

- J "I'm not a 'dude' so please don't call me one" toby

 

[Ballin' GS]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Experience.

Plus a decent understanding of suspensions and what actually causes tire wear.

But, most of all, experience.

- J "I'm not a 'dude' so please don't call me one" toby

Ok well i have the experience too that is why i'm trying to answer his question, unlike you who are trying to tell him what handles best... dude. Answer his question, which is 'how can i get the best tire wear' not what will give him less understeer, k?

 

[jtmcinder]

Why don't you let him say whether or not he wants my advice.

As to your assertion that spec leads to the least tire wear, well, that's wrong, too. Spec is 1/16" rear toe-in. You'd get the least tire wear with zero rear toe. One of the reasons that spec is something other than that which would lead to the least tire wear is that some rear toe-in makes the car more stable under braking.

Going farther, if we really wanted to get super uptight about the effects of toe on tire wear, then we need to ask him how often he fills the trunk with a load of crap. 2Gs toe-out when lowered, so they toe-out when the trunk is full. The other reason that spec is some rear toe-in is so the car stays near zero when you load it up. If he never loads his car, less rear toe-in is better for tire wear. If he often puts an elephant in his trunk, then he wants more than spec toe-in.

- Jtoby

 

[PsSsShTGSX]

wow u guys can calm down. i thank you both for ur advice. i see both points of view here. i will purchase a front camber kit, and just home depot kit the rear.
thanks,
chris

 

[Doug99RS]

I would recomend trying to tweak the cradle just a bit as well. The front caster has a 1.5 degree difference from left to right. I do know that the 2g's had a caster issue that normally is not really addressed but it's still out.

First things first though. The rear camber you might want to bring in maybe +0.3 on each side. Then get the rear toe set at 0.12. The rear should be at 0.12 because all it does is follow the front. No need for any out-of-spec settings there.

With the front, like I said see what you can do with the caster or at least search this and see what normal findings are and if anyone had any success repositioning the cradle. The camber is close but if you can get them dead even that would be really great. A 0.3 degree really isn't all that bad and a good alignment tech can tweek the toe just a hair to compensate. With the toe I would recomend setting them to factory specs or maybe just a hair positive. But they need to be an equal distance from zero.

Toe is the biggest killer of tires. Camber can kill the inside of a tire almost as bad. BUT when a tire has an excessive amount of toe it will not only wear the tire out sooner but it will cause the tires to fight against each other or against the direction the entire vehicle wants to go. Not only that but tire cupping or feathering will also create a moaning noise that varies with speed. Frequently people will replace wheel bearings to stop this noise only to find out it was the tire.

If you want the car to turn a little bit easier then go with a slightly positive toe setting. But I would not go more than half the distance from perfect to the limit. Maybe only 0.3" tops. Keep in mind though the above stuff and that you said it's for street use mostly. No need for pushing your settings out to increase performance at the expense of premature part wear.
Doug

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by Doug99RS
With the front, like I said see what you can do with the caster or at least search this and see what normal findings are and if anyone had any success repositioning the cradle.

The reason for the mismatching front caster is well known and it's not the front subframe, if that's what a "cradle" is. Starting in mid-1996, they started installing the inboard compression-arm bushing on the driver's side upside down, in order to make the car pull left a little, because the great unwashed were having problems driving straight on roads with high centers. The solution is to press out the bushing, flip it, and press it back in. If you have a 10-ton press and a well-designed adapter, it takes about ten minutes.

- Jtoby