good suspension setup or not???

[DSMeclipse4G63]

Ok I know that jtmcinder will read this as he trolls the suspension board all the time....j/k:laugh: . Anyways this is the suspension setup I was figuring after changing my mind about kyb agx/sportline combo. Mods are in profile, Im not going for a all out autoX but I want dramatic handling change....oh and my shocks/struts are blown. Ok so here goes:

-Tokico 5 way adjustable shocks/struts(I will be getting new bearings and mounts)
-eibach pro-kit springs
-rre lower front brace
-rear tie bar(if I can find one)
-Suspension tech. front and rear adjustable sway/roll bars
-for rubber Ill either have 17*7 with 225 45 zr17 or 17*8 with 235 40 zr17, the exact rubber will be kumho ecstas being as though Ive had AWSOME experience with them.
- As far as brakes go I have cross drilled disc rotors with high performance metallic pads
-edit: I already have front and rear strut bars...

I think I have everything covered, I believe my new revised setup paired with downforce and ample power will prove to be pretty decent. But just in case if I forgot anything or need changes Im open for opinions, but Im about 85% set on this list. Thanks for looking
Andrew

 

[igs]

I used to have Tokico with Eibach. It was same as stock if not worse.

 

[leet]

Originally posted by igs
I used to have Tokico with Eibach. It was same as stock if not worse.

I agree, you're not going to get the 'dramatic handling change' you are looking for from that.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

Ok I have blown shocks/struts so every bump my car floats and bounces. Not to mention my car oversteers BADLY a few months ago it did just the right amount. Anyways I need to get new shocks/struts, so I figured Id get springs while Im at it. I want to handle the turns without body lean again and handle a little better than before. So if it handles a little bit better than stock, doesnt lean in turns...then itll be a "dramatic handling difference" then it does now. Im almost definatly going with eibach springs cause like kumhos Ive had good experience with.

So what about my setup do you think I should change? should I get sportlines or what??
Andrew

 

[HondaKilla]

As far as the shocks go, I'd prolly get the Koni yellows...Alot of people, including myself have had really good results from them. If it was my setup id definitly stick with the pro kit. I had a koni/pro kit setup and was a huge change from stock and I loved it! As far as the rest goes I cant really comment on because I made custom titanium sway bars, strut bars, floor support bars, and so on, so I havnt had experiance with the rest of the other products you listed.

 

[ACM]

Tokico's damping rates are engineered for stock springs, as id the body length. Using these with ProKits will not improve handling beyond that of a god condition stock setup, but the ride quality will degrade significantly.

As Hondakilla says, Konis would be the best off-the-shelf damper for this setup. Jtoby can tell you the springs the Konis were engineered for - that would probably be the optimal setup.


Charles

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by ACM
Jtoby can tell you the springs the Konis were engineered for - that would probably be the optimal setup.

What I was told by Koni-NA was that they had H&R's in mind and used 425/275 during testing of the 1207 and 1208 (2G front and rears). However, I was also warned that this may change. Koni is currently developing their own spring kits and this has caused them to recognize that even H&R's rate might not move enough to the rear. But for the Koni Sports that you can get right now, 425/275 would be the suggested rates for a street car that wants to have better handling.

With that said, I'd up the rears to 300 or 325. 425/275 is too close to GC's suggested 450/300 (which I've tried) to be fun.

- Jtoby

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

what are the rates for pro kit and sportline kits ?

 

[jtmcinder]

Prokits are around 330/160. I have been searching for the rates for Sportlines - always jumping up to ask again whenever someone says anything about them - but I have yet to hear what they actually are. But I've ridden in a car with these and it's quite clear that they are much too soft for the amount of lowering.

- Jtoby

 

[MNGSX]

Good and affordable = KYB AGX (new part#) with GC..

Excellent and midpriced = Koni yellow with GC..

Awesome.= stuff like JIC, shocktek, custom stuff... Penske's with the "third spring".. Shocks linked hydraulically to act like a hydraulic sway bar... $K stuff...

You could potentially start a flame war over what the absolute best is here... Simply put there are better combos than even the Koni's... The auto-x guys who are'nt posers around here will know... Right now I dont particularly care about spending that much on suspension to have researched the highest end very completely.. IMHO for your first season at auto-x, a street car or a drag car the highest end is completely uneccessary..

With GC I recomend other springs than the eibachs that come with them but when new they will work fine for now but they will eventually sag a bit. I like the QA1 springs since they are a real racing suspension component MFG they make more than just springs.. Heim joints etc... not some fast and furious ricer yo mfg. They also come in at a lower price than hypercoil and I like the silver finish as well as the process they use to get it better...

Look around for lightly used GC's and or konis/agx's.. Blow-ering springs suck. Then replace every ball joint, bushing and tie rod end. My sway bar links were fine... I had to split the nut to get it off w/o hurting the links to do the installs but the ball and socket joints on the links were nice and tight and the boots intact. Get stainless locknuts... Or use the ones off your OE shocks to replace the link nuts (same size). Doing suspension, brake or exhaust work on a car up here definately makes you glad you quit driving it in the winter.

DONT OVERLOOK THE IMPORTANCE OF SWAYBARS AND THE PARTS THAT KEEP CONTROL ARMS FROM BEING OUT OF CONTROL ARMS.

Has your car been checked for the "ball joint water inclusion recall".. I got two new front lateral arms for nada.

IMHO... first suspension mods... replace everything worn out before getting crazy with the custom stuff.... Just for S&G's even though I had all the parts there. I did my upgraded sway bars and most (not all) of the ES bushings, replaced all the ball joints etc.. Doing that all before I put in the new shocks and GC's.

Just that was dramatic. Then I put on the shocks and springs... I still need to put in the ES upper rear control arm bushings but I will do that when I put in the rear camber kit. I'm not using the front upper arm bushings because I have ingalls camber eccentric bushings going in there. Once the camber kit is in and the last four ES bushings are in I'll align it... Then look for some twisties.

The ST rear bar clears a bosal 3" perfect.. Only an RM will work with low hanging systems like N1's... The rear bars are not adjustable. The front is alot harder to install than the rear for some people but just yank the passenger side subframe triangle (same one as doing a clutch). You can also pull the DP to pull the Tcase if you wish but if you look and plan your moves before you try to slide a bar in and out it takes only 30 secs to slip it in or out with the case still in place... The little subframe on the pass side still has to come out... The front bar on it's stiffest setting (3 possible holes for the end link) is pretty fuggin cool.. I tried all three.. The rear bar is definately stiffer as well...

My main point is that our rides are getting a bit aged 95-96... Just changing the shocks and springs at all four corners is'nt enough to make it handle tight...

I had some loud NVH out back I thought maybe a u-joint or diff gears... Nope! Come to find out on the install that the stock spring had worn thru its rubber upper pad on both rears and was metal to metal with the rear upper spring perch.

If the ball joints are loose, the alignment is way off and old bushings are deflecting It still is'nt going to handle right if you stuck DG's custom shocks and hypercoils on there.

The job of shocks and springs is to keep the tire in firm contact with the road while absorbing the force of the bump or dip so it wont unsettle the whole car. The spring and shock is just one aspect of handling..

Limiting roll can be done via sway bar upgrades, lowering and stiffer spring rates. Combine all three but don't go crazy with spring rate for street, drag or rougher tracks... IMHO limiting roll is primarily the swaybars job.. Lowering is good as long as you don't corner bottomed out on the bumpstops but a swaybar upgrade will help prevent that too.

In fact for FWD drag use some stiff ass rear springs... Also GC's are good here because of available spring rates and the ability to jack up the ass end to load the front at the track and crank it back down on the road.

With AWD I want some weight transfer.. So I'll try rear 350#'s first and maybe try softer at the drag track.. I'm guessing allowing rearward weight transfer just shy of when the front tires chirp is about right.

It all comes down to designing the entire suspension system around the use and your budget..

Once again its the sum of all parts not necessarily the sum paid for a few parts.

1. AGX+ GC + Better springs + ES Bushings + Ingalls camber kit + New ball joints + new tie rod ends + upgraded sway bars

>

2. Koni + GC + everything else 9yr old worn out crap.

However price wise 1 may = 2.

Option 3 is Konis in place of the AGX in option 1 but then again 3 is much > 1 in $ and .

Oh I have Kuhmo 712's... The Kuhmo MX's own the 712's.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by HondaKilla
As far as the rest goes I cant really comment on because I made custom titanium sway bars, strut bars, floor support bars, and so on,

I'd like to see that. Titanium is'nt the easiest metal to work with. I really cant think of anyway someone could bend a solid 1" or even 19mm diameter titanium bar into a swaybar on their own. Im sure some suspension MFG's dont even have the equipment to do that. Also titanium may be light and strong it lacks the attributes that the steel alloys swaybar mfgs use so their bars always spring back to straight and don't twist. In theory you could connect billet levers to a straight length of ti and make a swaybar. But in the front it wont clear the tcase if it did'nt have the bow in the middle.

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I'd like to see that. Titanium is'nt the easiest metal to work with. I really cant think of anyway someone could bend a solid 1" or even 19mm diameter titanium bar into a swaybar on their own. Im sure some suspension MFG's dont even have the equipment to do that. Also titanium may be light and strong it lacks the attributes that the steel alloys swaybar mfgs use so their bars always spring back to straight and don't twist. In theory you could connect billet levers to a straight length of ti and make a swaybar. But in the front it wont clear the tcase if it did'nt have the bow in the middle.

Being that my father owns a machine shop and we work with titanium day in and day out I'll be more then happy to allow you pictures. On hand I have pictures of the machine shop but as soon as I get ahold of the dig. camera I'll send the pics of the sway bars and send them your way! So now I would love for YOU to explain to me the properties of titanium and how it reacts under stress compared to steel to ME. I have been in tool and die for years and my father has over 20 years experiance... ; ) I'm also in the process of machining titanium rotors and a titanium roll cage if you would like to see those also. If you would like to PM me your e-mail address I'll send em your way.

 

[MNGSX]

If you can do it cool..

I'm sure you know that machining titanium is'nt as easy as steel..

Simply put it is harder to work with as compared to steel. Therefore when someone says they made titanium bars it does initially make one think of raising the BS flag.

Also I dont think you really machine a roll cage as much as you fabricate and weld it.

If you guys have the equipment to pull stuff off like that make some front upper control arms and a real lower A arm both with corrected geometry for a 2" drop... Even made out steel they would sell like mad..

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by MNGSX
If you can do it cool..

I'm sure you know that machining titanium is'nt as easy as steel..

Simply put it is harder to work with as compared to steel. Therefore when someone says they made titanium bars it does initially make one think of raising the BS flag.

Also I dont think you really machine a roll cage as much as you fabricate and weld it.

If you guys have the equipment to pull stuff off like that make some front upper control arms and a real lower A arm both with corrected geometry for a 2" drop... Even made out steel they would sell like mad..

Ok ok im fabricating a roll cage . As far as machining titanium, its a real bi***! Once you get it down though it goes through pretty easy. Its very similar to machining stainless steel. I'm in the process of doing the rotors and roll cage but if your interested in the upper control arms and lower A arm I'll be glad to figure something out. As of right now I do not have the time to figure out dimensions and so on but if you'd like to help with that part I'll for sure machine them and send it to ya for the low price of shipping and handling . They wont sell if someone cant state wether they are any good or are crap so giving a set away to someone that knows what they are talking about would definitly help. I'd probably machine up some full titanium and some titanium/stainless steel for the people that dont have the money but what similar weight to full titanium. Shoot me an e-mail if your seriously interested in them!

 

[MNGSX]

I'll have to do some measuring and planning...

The upper arm is the big one.. I think I have a cheaper yet as effective idea for the lower.

 

[HondaKilla]

I should have some free time in a couple weeks to take a look at some things. I'd probably need some help on figuring what it needs to be with a 2" drop. I can push the titanium exhaust idea out of the way for a while to have time for this. Cant ya tell I'm obsessed with titanium . It's a good material though, and I'm used to working with it so I like it. Only downside is the cost...oh well if people will pay the high prices for c/f I'm sure they would for titanium. I'm startin a new craze here .

 

[MNGSX]

The main goals are

1. Having control arms at the same angle at rest as when it was at stock height.. Not pointed up....

2. Having only one pivot point on the bottom side of the spindle... This will eliminate the twisting of the shock and need to have soft bushings to allow steering. This will be done via connecting the longitudinal arm to the lateral arm as opposed to the spindle... It would also drop the outer tip of the control arm 2"....

Interestingly with factory springs it would be 2" lower yet the control lower control arm angle has'nt moved... It's not to avoid doing springs but to correct geometry. The upper arm would basically be offset at the ball joint end and frame mount end such that it would be at the same angle as compared to the ground as factory..

I'll draw something up.

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by MNGSX
The main goals are

1. Having control arms at the same angle at rest as when it was at stock height.. Not pointed up....

2. Having only one pivot point on the bottom side of the spindle... This will eliminate the twisting of the shock and need to have soft bushings to allow steering. This will be done via connecting the longitudinal arm to the lateral arm as opposed to the spindle... It would also drop the outer tip of the control arm 2"....

Interestingly with factory springs it would be 2" lower yet the control lower control arm angle has'nt moved... It's not to avoid doing springs but to correct geometry. The upper arm would basically be offset at the ball joint end and frame mount end such that it would be at the same angle as compared to the ground as factory..

I'll draw something up.

So one of the main goals, to sum it all up, is to have it at the same angle as when the car was at factory height. I have the 240 with me other wise I'd take a "break" from work and get the car lifted. I'll try tomorrow to get under the car if I have time and try to help figure something out. Maybe something adjustable would be on call for this...

 

[ACM]

If you made a front upper A-arm with threaded clevises at the inboard ends you'd sell a dozen sets before you finished typing the announcement ! The ability to shorten the upper arm to give about -3* camber would have most of the SM competitors doing happy dances

Me being an ESP-er would just turn an ugly shade of green...

Though I could still put a set on my 98 }-]


Charles

 

[cait sith]

I think Charles just wants to look like those hot hot JDM Drift cars.

http://www.speedstar.co.jp/collection/ssr_mesh/ssr_mesh.swf

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by MNGSX
The main goals are

1. Having control arms at the same angle at rest as when it was at stock height.. Not pointed up....

The only way that this is going to happen is if you completely reworked the spindle (aka knuckle). In particular, you'd need to move the hub up by however much you wanted to lower the car. If you crawl around under your car looking at everything, you will quickly realize that this isn't going to happen.

It might be possible to heat and bend the spindle such that upper mounting point is lowered (as close to the top of the tire as possible), as well as being moved outwards (relative to the tire) to get some more front camber. This will prevent the upper A-arm from being at such a radical angle and will also delay when the A-arm hits the fender. But you will still have the problem of the lower LCA being flat or worse on an over-lowered car. And this is more of the issue with regards to handling than the angle of the upper A-arm.

- Jtoby

 

[igs]

Why titanium arms when you can go with aluminum?

 

[HondaKilla]

Originally posted by cait sith
I think Charles just wants to look like those hot hot JDM Drift cars.

http://www.speedstar.co.jp/collection/ssr_mesh/ssr_mesh.swf

, Thats great!

Originally posted by jtmcinder
The only way that this is going to happen is if you completely reworked the spindle (aka knuckle). In particular, you'd need to move the hub up by however much you wanted to lower the car. If you crawl around under your car looking at everything, you will quickly realize that this isn't going to happen.

It might be possible to heat and bend the spindle such that upper mounting point is lowered (as close to the top of the tire as possible), as well as being moved outwards (relative to the tire) to get some more front camber. This will prevent the upper A-arm from being at such a radical angle and will also delay when the A-arm hits the fender. But you will still have the problem of the lower LCA being flat or worse on an over-lowered car. And this is more of the issue with regards to handling than the angle of the upper A-arm.

- Jtoby

I havn't had a chance to look under the car yet but I'm sure SOMETHING can be done. Yea it will take some work but I think it would be worth it in the end. Gotta think POSITIVE.

Originally posted by igs
Why titanium arms when you can go with aluminum?

I'd probably go steel before I went aluminum. As soon as I can take a look at some things I'll decide on what I feel comfortable usuing.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
The only way that this is going to happen is if you completely reworked the spindle (aka knuckle). In particular, you'd need to move the hub up by however much you wanted to lower the car. If you crawl around under your car looking at everything, you will quickly realize that this isn't going to happen.

I just spent a ton of time crawling around under, swaping bushings, bars, shocks and springs.... I know what it looks like.

Why rework the spindle when you can just work over a lateral control arm.

Moving the spindle 1.5-2" above the control arm is the key...

Knock out the ball joint from the lateral arm. Machine a beefy block of steel that will mount in it's place that moves the ball joint up that 1.5-2"... Also on this block will be a mounting hole for the longitudinal control arms ball joint.... Effectively connecting both arms to each other. The longitudinal arms ball joint alows it to control the arc of the lateral arm w/o binding. Having only one ball joint actually connected to the spindle eliminates the arm sway and shock/spring twisting caused from steering with two lower pivot points. It also gives the lower control arm an OE angle. It may require using a stouter ball joint and drilling the hole in the spindle for it.. maybe not... The upper joint is the only one up top and it gets wailed on too and holds....

Think of it as spacing the tip of the lateral arm down as opposed to moving the spindle up..

Even at non overlowered levels the lower arm angle correction is a good idea... Also if new tricks arise to solve the problems of a lower height is it really overlowered anymore if it is corrected for?

Originally posted by jtmcinder
It might be possible to heat and bend the spindle such that upper mounting point is lowered (as close to the top of the tire as possible), as well as being moved outwards (relative to the tire) to get some more front camber. This will prevent the upper A-arm from being at such a radical angle and will also delay when the A-arm hits the fender. But you will still have the problem of the lower LCA being flat or worse on an over-lowered car. And this is more of the issue with regards to handling than the angle of the upper A-arm.

- Jtoby [/B]

Why move the spindle tip down when you can move the ball joint up on then end of a custom control arm?

I realize the angle of the lower control arm is more critical than the upper and there is precious little space to work with up top....

If the LOWER arm is pointed up at rest it will "shorten" as the suspension compresses decreasing negative camber as the suspension bumps....

Now if it is at the stock angle which is a below level arm angle it will "lengthen" as the suspension bumps (up to a level arm) increasing negative camber...

Actually having a UPPER arm at a bit more upward angle (not radical) gets more negative camber as the suspension compresses. You really can't raise the frame attatchment points. The threaded clevis is a good idea. But a tig welded chromemolly tubular arm with those is probably the best idea. An upper arm which has a dogleg on it will help... It does'nt need to bring the angle back exactly to stock... Not pointed right at the inner fender at rest nor at the stock angle. From the clevis points stay level for a ways so that inboard end of the arm can clear the inboard of the well under bump... But past what you need for clearance angle upward... At the ball joint end mount it to a metal plate welded to the topside of the tubing and maybe have some upward offset on the tip of the arm if needed....

The thread about the prototype adjustable upper arms on here includes somone who told the MFG just what I was thinking an upper arms profile should look like... They aren't doing clevis joints but a sliding ball joint however.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112587

 

[HondaKilla]

Well since I still have the 240 with me I decided I'd just go ahead and take a look under it to see what all is involved in simply making one. I think I can pull it off pretty good. It may take me a while to get everything right and just the way ya'll want and how it needs to be but it can be done. As far as how I'm going to have it set up on the eclipse is unkown yet due to me not being able to have a look right now. Just for the note though...I WILL NOT go aluminum. As for what material...I'm not sure yet. I'ma make some calls Monday and try to come up with some weights. If the titanium will only be like a pound or so lighter then the steel well then I'll just go steel. But if its like...5 pounds or so well then I'll offer a titanium and a steel, or just titanium. I'm not sure on how long it will take to have some prototypes but ima take my time and make sure I can get everything as perfect as possible. I'm not going to rush through it and have some half ass products.