Eagle Rod Limits

[Suparata]

Like I said, Lady Luck does not like me. Everybody else gets the “good” sets and I end up with what’s left.
So what do you guys recommend we should do? Recondition a brand new “perfect” rod on our expense because none of the customer nor the manufacturer is willing to pay for that or keep sending back and forth rods and pay for shipping both ways every time until we get a good set? What if all the sets they have in stock are sized wrong? Do I tell the customer to be patient because he will get his rods in a month or so?
Maybe I don’t really want to make a sale no matter what or maybe there are other alternatives out there.
Mitch.

 

[gsxstac]

from my experience eagle rods always need to be machined on both ends. i've built 2 motors and both needed machining, and i've witnessed 5 motors built built, all 6 bolts with eagles and all of them needed machining on both ends, its a fact of life, you pay 330$ for them and then spend another 100-150 gettin them machined. seems to me eagle doesnt put the time into making them perfect, they make them a little smaller so they keep costs down. eagle seems good to me

 

[Enraged78]

I am running eagle's aswell. I heard about the "out of round" while my set up was at the machine shop. The machinist said they were perfectly fine, and here I am 14k miles later no problem. But I'm looking at spraying the motor now.....Hopefuly I wont be reposting leting you know the limits

Building my motor right now with an Eagle/Ross combo. My machinist, with 30 years of experience, told me that he ALWAYS checks any rod when it comes in, but especially Eagles. The rods are good, but many times they ARE out of round and may have to be machined to get them back in round and within the same weights.

Matt.

 

[Suparata]

Rods need to be honed on the small end to fit the pin almost all the time.That is something I got used to.
But I'm talking about .001" oversized and .0004" out of round on the big end and that means they need to be reconditioned not just honed to size.
What do you do then?
Mitch.

from my experience eagle rods always need to be machined on both ends. i've built 2 motors and both needed machining, and i've witnessed 5 motors built built, all 6 bolts with eagles and all of them needed machining on both ends, its a fact of life, you pay 330$ for them and then spend another 100-150 gettin them machined. seems to me eagle doesnt put the time into making them perfect, they make them a little smaller so they keep costs down. eagle seems good to me.

 

[logic]

its a fact of life, you pay 330$ for them and then spend another 100-150 gettin them machined. seems to me eagle doesnt put the time into making them perfect, they make them a little smaller so they keep costs down.

This is the part that worries me.

Magnus, AMS, Buschur, etc. are all going to (hopefully) measure the components before installing them, and do any necessary machining at that point before building the engine. They're going to send that engine to the customer, and said customer is going to get a big silly grin on their face while the engine holds together and does what it's supposed to do.

What I worry about is the average schmoe at home reading this thread and taking away: "Eagles are golden, look at how much horsepower they can withstand!" They're going to assemble their engine without checking measurements on the brand new parts they just ordered (they're brand new, everyone else uses them, Stampy makes "mad horsepower, yo!" , so they must be perfect, right?), and wind up with a bearing wear timebomb waiting to go off a few hundred to a few thousand miles down the road.

 

[gsxstac]

This is the part that worries me.

Magnus, AMS, Buschur, etc. are all going to (hopefully) measure the components before installing them, and do any necessary machining at that point before building the engine. They're going to send that engine to the customer, and said customer is going to get a big silly grin on their face while the engine holds together and does what it's supposed to do.

What I worry about is the average schmoe at home reading this thread and taking away: "Eagles are golden, look at how much horsepower they can withstand!" They're going to assemble their engine without checking measurements on the brand new parts they just ordered (they're brand new, everyone else uses them, Stampy makes "mad horsepower, yo!" , so they must be perfect, right?), and wind up with a bearing wear timebomb waiting to go off a few hundred to a few thousand miles down the road.

well considering dsm's break as much as they do, any schmoe should be having an eninge builder put their motor together, i hope people arent just throwing motors together in their basments. in this game you cant buy "engine building for dummies" from the supermarket and going to hell with yourself.

in my opinion its not that big of a deal if you have to machine the rod a tad when ur puttin them in. anyone who throws the shit together and it blows almost deserves it, there is tons of information out there for people to read, its only ignorance for them to jsut do something without researching it first.

 

[Suparata]

You will be quoted by every guy that comes in the shop and read your post. They will tell me to RECONDITION , yes recondition the brand new rod for free because it is not a big deal. You don’t just touch the big end on a hone when it is .001 of an inch BIGGER and .0004 of an inch OUT-OF-ROUND!!!!! You need to RECONDITION that rod just like you would do with a stock used rod so why bother?
Some guys research a lot but they also listen to what is being said in forums like this and they see that everything related to building an engine is not big deal and should be done dirt cheap(or even for free) by the machinist.
That’s why I get a lot of “I was told…” and “I understand it is not needed…” and so on spending more time to explain why something need to be done than anything else.

 

[gsxstac]

You will be quoted by every guy that comes in the shop and read your post. They will tell me to RECONDITION , yes recondition the brand new rod for free because it is not a big deal. You don’t just touch the big end on a hone when it is .001 of an inch BIGGER and .0004 of an inch OUT-OF-ROUND!!!!! You need to RECONDITION that rod just like you would do with a stock used rod so why bother?
Some guys research a lot but they also listen to what is being said in forums like this and they see that everything related to building an engine is not big deal and should be done dirt cheap(or even for free) by the machinist.
That’s why I get a lot of “I was told…” and “I understand it is not needed…” and so on spending more time to explain why something need to be done than anything else.

your saying i'll be quoted??? or the guy i quoted??? i dont fully understand your post

 

[Suparata]

in my opinion its not that big of a deal if you have to machine the rod a tad when ur puttin them in.... .

This remark will have everybody who reads it tell me that I should resize those rods at no extra charge because “it is not a big deal”.
I am asking again: is resizing the big end of a rod that is oversized and out-of-round something easy to do? Should this be done on a brand new “high performance” rod that you paid premium for?
Mitch.

 

[NDgsx]

Mitch are you saying they are oversized based on actually measuring the rod against spec, or are you saying that your bearing clearance ended up being .001 to large? If it's just the bearing clearance what bearings are you running?
I've had clevites come in a couple times that were .0006" thinner than the mitsu bearings. Maybe the .001" is a total stack up problem? That's all assuming you were just refering to the bearing cleance.
If the rod itself is .001" off that horrible and you're right it defeats the purpose of buying the "cheaper" rod as the cost of resizing brings them closer to crower/pauter/carillo pricing.
Re-bushing the small end isn't a big deal, which I did have to do on my set for the Ross pins. With the wiseco pins on another set they were fine. Re-sizing the big end of the rod is not a small problem.

I've run three sets of eagle rods and so far haven't had a problem. All with mitsu bearings, clearances between .0010" and .0015", and they were symetrical. That's only my personal experience though.

 

[Suparata]

I was talking about the big end of the rods being almost .001” bigger than the middle of the range and also up to .0004” out of round. They would probably run that way but nothing like that will go into any of my engines.
I’m to the point of not trusting anything out there starting with valves and ending with brand new crankshafts. Just to give you an idea how ####ed up things are I’ll give you the latest: Brand New Mitsubishi 2.4 crankshaft consistently .0005” lower than the minimum of the range. How do you like that? This one would work too but like I said not in my engine. I don’t care who made a particular part: if it is not in specs, I’m not using it. I’m sick and tired to clean up somebody else’s mess and loose my ass doing that while they are making nothing but money and hide behind disclosures for “racing” parts. I’m trying to give a fair shot to my customers but who’s giving me one?
I am not that hungry to make a sale no matter what. I build engines and most of the parts we sell go in our engines so I care what I sell. Shit doesn’t just “go out the door” from us.
Mitch

 

[NDgsx]

Yeah that is really bad, I definetly see why you don't like eagles. I've only done three motors with eagles, so I haven't developed a firm opinion on them yet. So far those were all good, but three sets isn't a big enough sample.
Have you ever used carillos? I used them on a MR2 before and they were dead on perfect in all respects, very good quality control. I haven't used them on a 4G63 though.

 

[Suparata]

I personally like Oliver rods. I’ve never used Carillos.

 

[poorboyj]

Mitch are you saying they are oversized based on actually measuring the rod against spec, or are you saying that your bearing clearance ended up being .001 to large? If it's just the bearing clearance what bearings are you running?
I've had clevites come in a couple times that were .0006" thinner than the mitsu bearings. Maybe the .001" is a total stack up problem? That's all assuming you were just refering to the bearing cleance.
If the rod itself is .001" off that horrible and you're right it defeats the purpose of buying the "cheaper" rod as the cost of resizing brings them closer to crower/pauter/carillo pricing.
Re-bushing the small end isn't a big deal, which I did have to do on my set for the Ross pins. With the wiseco pins on another set they were fine. Re-sizing the big end of the rod is not a small problem.

I've run three sets of eagle rods and so far haven't had a problem. All with mitsu bearings, clearances between .0010" and .0015", and they were symetrical. That's only my personal experience though.

I had this same exact problem. Eagles with Clevite bearign had .003" oil clearance. Mitsu bearings brought the oil clearance to within spec (barely, but loose is good).

Jay

 

[Suparata]

I agree with you on the rod bolts part. A rod gets abused the most at the top dead center (at overlap) when there are no forces to help at the sudden direction changes and when the rod bolts stretch. This is why a stock rod that is reconditioned using ARP bolts is a very good choice when it comes to rods.
But you just can’t assemble an engine with components that are not in specs, I don’t care who build the rod or what is made out of.
Mitch

 

[2.4 turbo Hyped]

It's funny you should ask this; I just came across this post from Marco at Magnus Motorsports the other day: This was posted as part of the big 2.4L thread over at the other board. Personally, I have no opinion on rods one way or the other, but there you go.

Money makes you say things like this. I am using eagle rods in my stroked motor. If the eagles are good enough for big block motors dont you think they would be ok for us>?

 

[Cesar]

Mitch,
are you saying that using clevites gives you larger clearance? As opposed to mitsu oem bearings??

I know that eagles run free floating pins when matched with ross pistons...how are the pins installed? I've tried to fit my pins, they don't slide in, but I'm pretty sure I can tap them in.
Should they slide right in? Is the small end of the rod undersided? does It have to be bored to the right clearance?

Are spirolox reusable? It looks as if they need to be cut in order to be removed...

Thanks

 

[NDgsx]

Mitch,
are you saying that using clevites gives you larger clearance? As opposed to mitsu oem bearings??

I know that eagles run free floating pins when matched with ross pistons...how are the pins installed? I've tried to fit my pins, they don't slide in, but I'm pretty sure I can tap them in.
Should they slide right in? Is the small end of the rod undersided? does It have to be bored to the right clearance?

Are spirolox reusable? It looks as if they need to be cut in order to be removed...

Thanks

Typically they do in my experience.
To run Ross pistons with eagle rods you have to rebush the small end of the rod. Should run $40. They are a floating design, they should slide in.
Not really, I've never seen them come out without damage.

 

[92redman]

I was talking about the big end of the rods being almost .001” bigger than the middle of the range and also up to .0004” out of round. They would probably run that way but nothing like that will go into any of my engines.

Sorry to bring this thread back but I just got ready to machine my Eagle's because I found out they are not finished to save cost. I found the same damn thing, some of my big ends are more than .001" larger than the max spec. Now I find it acceptable to have them .001" or more smaller than the middle of the specs because it is easy to hone them to the size you want, but now I gotta go and figure out if I can easily cut the caps down to bring them smaller just so I can finish them(do they have dowels that have to be removed to perform this??). I don't feel cutting caps should ever have to be done on a brand new rod, and if it makes a difference I bought them last winter/spring time. Haven't even got to measuring the bushed end, but hopefully there is enough bushing that it can just be honed to size...