1G E-85 vs 93

[911gdsmboostin]

I was trying to find threads on the pros and cons and cpu froze up but sense its started any info would be great I have 2 dsms identical one a DD the other is fitted with a fuel cell and has A LOT of money dumped into it including forged internals crank rods and pistons and valves and so on custom cams and bored and I have a Holset turbo for it as well and probly gonna make it more of a track car and hear about a lot of ppl running e-85 so im wondering if its worth it? whats involved? do I need special parts?

 

[1SloEvo]

E-85 is Bette for power...but what does the topic have to do with if you are running a thermostat?

 

[911gdsmboostin]

[DOUBLEPOST=1410414443][/DOUBLEPOST]

E-85 is Bette for power...but what does the topic have to do with if you are running a thermostat?

sorry sir like it was from another post some how got stuck in this thread when I was only trying to see what threads were made already and some how made my own was an accident but I found almost no threads about it soo maybe now we can just start one?

 

[lbz34]

If E85 is local to you I would not even consider anything else in any car. We are are beaint shit stock bottom end car 30+ psi on 6266 and E85 for 2 moths now and its taking it like a champ, even saw 42 psi on a 1-2 gear pull (auto) and shes still thumping right alone 100k stock bottom end.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

Stock pistons ^ ?? I knew that with a solid tune they could take some airflow but that kind of cylinder pressure must be insane! Wish we had E85 in WA, only five stations total and three are on military bases with no access to civilians. Only problem with E85 is that it won't knock before trouble hits. You should be very careful as you push a setup to its limits since you're EGT's will melt down pistons when you add too much timing and boost without realizing it. Other than that small issue (which really is just something to keep in mind, not an issue per say...), its been absolutely incredible for the forced induction industry. Much more static compression allowed without the trade off of lowered timing, and a bigger safety net for tuning mistakes makes it the go-to if its in your area and you don't road trip much.

They even have flex-fuel support via ECMLink v3 at this point, so you can use standard premium pump for daily or out of town use, and when you fill up with the corn juice again, a sensor can judge your ethanol content and allow for more aggressive maps once the threshold is met for your tuning. Best of both worlds all in one and its not even that expensive of an add-on.

 

[06legacygt]

I'd go E85 if it was available in my area. Tuner loves it but the closest station is about a hour away.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

well luckly I have 2 talons both identical one a dd one kinda not so much.. ones almost stock the other has forged bottom end and over 10000 in the motor have aluminum half rad fmic holset turbo and a bunch of other goodies.. I have a billet throttle body on the way for that one and I know e-85 is around somewhere coz I know ppl who use it figure I can buy some and have avauble and use when needed more couriouris of what I will need fue parts wise coz I know it needs to push more fuel then reg 93 to keep up wth same effects. oh and ecm will be a must in this car

 

[wolf alchemy]

I'm super curious since e-85 is cheaper than 92 more often than not

 

[lbz34]

Only mods to the longblock are cams, springs/retianers, balance shafts removed, reused ARP head studs and reused the stock mls gasket that was on the car when we bought it in April. had to swap the head because one cam journal was burned up when we went to put in the new Kelfords so we put another head on it, copper coated the gasket that came off and back on it went. Of course in the process of building a shortblock, porting a head for the car, I am sure the stock motor won't put up with this kind of power for long. Going to make a pass as soosn as the DA drops here maybe in October, looking for 9's if she holds together with the street beatings . E85 has worked very well for us in a lot of different platforms, hard to beat $3/gal racegas, better spool, more tuning window, less engine heat, etc.......

 

[DSM1G90]

It's all about the numbers game: E85 fuels have an octane rating almost 110 where as 93 is just that .. 93 octane. Using alcohol fuels, one can have some crazy compression ratios close to what diesel is .. almost 20:1 due to the high octane content in a normal aspirated (NT) condition.

Just that E85 fuels - being 85% alcohol, 15% regular fuel.
Alcohol is a highly corrosive compound. And alcohol, with its high corrosive content, will eat and loosens everything in its way and send it to the filter which gets plugged up in a heartbeat...and will weaken anything made of rubber.

If one does an E85 conversion, plan on getting everything cleaned out and anything rubber replaced with items that are resistive to alcohol....and plan on a major tune change when changing fuels.

Plus, alcohol fuels are actually a cold firing fuel, thus the BTU output is much less for given amount of fuel. Thus, it take more alcohol fuel to put out the same BTU numbers that 93 contains.

BTU (British Thermal Units) is the results of the spark ignition: the power ("punch") output of the fuel explosion.

Think I'll stay with conventional fuels - easier to find.

-DSM

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

If E85 is local to you I would not even consider anything else in any car. We are are beaint sh** stock bottom end car 30+ psi on 6266 and E85 for 2 moths now and its taking it like a champ, even saw 42 psi on a 1-2 gear pull (auto) and shes still thumping right alone 100k stock bottom end.

Same results here on stock piston/rod motor, but an even bigger snail.. 67/98 compressor wheel. 1400 miles this year, 31psi, and an accidental third gear pull at 38psi a few weeks back. Super tall gearing (FWD Diff in AWD 5MT) and she's a pig, so some big time load.

It's all about the numbers game: E85 fuels have an octane rating almost 110 where as 93 is just that .. 93 octane.

...

Plus, alcohol fuels are actually a cold firing fuel, thus the BTU output is much less for given amount of fuel. Thus, it take more alcohol fuel to put out the same BTU numbers that 93 contains.

BTU (British Thermal Units) is the results of the spark ignition: the power ("punch") output of the fuel explosion.

Think I'll stay with conventional fuels - easier to find.

-DSM

E85 is going to be closer to 105oct AKI, but it's not just octane rating that's in play here. The burn temp curve is incidental to the energy density, not a result.

Also, while said density is indeed lower, if you note the stoich ratios and the actual energy per unit volume you'll find you can pull the same energy quantity for the same charge on paper, and typically more in practice because of the differences in dynamic considerations like MBT spark angle, heat control, etc.

Oversimplified:
80.3MJ/Gal for E85
127.5MJ/Gal for Gas
Gas being roughly 33% more dense energy wise per unit volume.

Well let's look at stoich ratios, 9.8:1 for E85 vs 14.7 for Gas, on paper if you had to use the same lambda ratios (what UEGOs actually operate in) you're looking at 50% more E85 to fully combust the same charge air mass.

80.3MJ x 1.5 = 120.5MJ

120.5/127.5 = ~95%

It's largely due to this sort of proportional arrangement that you'll never hear anyone complaining of losing power on Nitromethane vs Gasoline. Nitromethane having only 52.6MJ/Gal, but a stoich of 2.5:1 and typically run closer to 1.6:1.

Compared to a Max Rich Power Gas AFR around 12.8:1, 1.6:1 Nitro motor has the potential to make well more than double what the Gas equivalent could hope for. There's more to it than energy density too, especially at purely face value.

 

[GSLENK]

I'd go E85 if it was available in my area. Tuner loves it but the closest station is about a hour away.

55 gal drum, x1 or x2 and take it in a truck to the station. Filler up! I love this stuff, and I'm not even pushing it yet.

 

[livedsm4g63]

E85 er'day. I drove the dsm up north awhile back and cruising at 55mpg I got 20mpg on e85. @ 3.09 a gallon, Ill take it. Thats with a 400 h/p car.

Granted if I get "on it" for the entire tank I see about 12mpg. But at that rate its not about the mpg, its about smiles per gallon.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

moral of the story, to run e-85 she drinks a lot more and needs bigger pump ( at least walbro 255 ) and much bigger injectors. and a good fuel filter... so the 950cc fic injectors I just ordered wouldn't be great... but I plan on going down that road a little ways away now I got sum bigger problems with motor mts.. thanks to dr Frankenstein... I gotta make a decision on it hopefully the high horses can be tamed until the corn grows

 

[livedsm4g63]

I ran 950s on e85 with my last dsm. I was able to push over 500 horse. Im sure 950 will be plenty. Right now I have 1150s on e85, lower fuel pressure and a smaller pump, and I see 80% duty cycle. Im around 400 horse.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

I ran 950s on e85 with my last dsm. I was able to push over 500 horse. Im sure 950 will be plenty. Right now I have 1150s on e85, lower fuel pressure and a smaller pump, and I see 80% duty cycle. Im around 400 horse.

what kind of psi did you run at the fpr? and the pump?

 

[livedsm4g63]

Normally I run 2g pressures, with a rewired pump. Using the 950s I ran higher pressure, around 50, and a 340 pump rewired. I saw around 85-90% duty cycle. Id keep the injectors, 950s are a lot better for drive-ability.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

Normally I run 2g pressures, with a rewired pump. Using the 950s I ran higher pressure, around 50, and a 340 pump rewired. I saw around 85-90% duty cycle. Id keep the injectors, 950s are a lot better for drive-ability.

Can you elaborate on therewired pump?? How are they rewired and what does it do? Somthin I can do my self?

 

[GSLENK]

Sketch of rewire: "run 8ga wire from battery to a relay and use the old pump wire to signal the relay to turn on."

There are more specific write-ups everywhere. Very easy. Use a fuse.

 

[livedsm4g63]

Can you elaborate on therewired pump?? How are they rewired and what does it do? Somthin I can do my self?

It allows a consistent voltage, from the battery - to the pump. STM sells a kit with instructions. Fairly cheap, and well worth it.

 

[lasershark]

I figured this thread would be good to ask, I read somewhere once (cant remember what site) that a guy mixed a little bit of e85 (couple gals? not sure)with his regular gas because 91 octane was the highest he could get. I'm not e85 knowledgeable so why not ask.
Is this something that would work to up octane a bit or a bad idea?

 

[GSLENK]

Most pumps do this already. Most of the available gas is ~E10. 93 around here is about 7-8% E. You might be able to add a little, just keep in mind the fact that it will raise your fuel requirements. Also, you must be consistent in mixing it otherwise you might be lean, or knock more.