car is stranded! clutch problem

[PieEyedPiper]

My car is stranded and I think it's a clutch problem.

I was driving in first gear, shifted at 3800rpm under boost, into second and when I put the clutch in again ( to shift into 2nd gear), the clutch felt really funny, there was half as much pedal weight as there usually was. The only force being applied to the pedal was my foot, and the spring attached to the pedal's base.

Please help! My car is stranded out of my home town.
Thanks for reading.

 

[oldman]

How's the fluid level? Check for leaks at master cylinder under the dash, pull back the boot at the slave cylinder and make sure the fork isn't bent or snapped, the connection for the clutch line and the rubber hose. Does it pump up at all?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

oldman to the rescue,
thanks for stopping by. I'm going to get the car towed (err.. flatbedded) home tomorrow. AAA better have good rates, only the first 5miles are free.

I will check for those items tomorrow evening (i have class). I'm not certain where all the components I have to check are, but I'll look it up.

I looked under the hood, and nothing appeared wrong, or covered in fluid. I payed close attention to the feel of the pedal and determined the only resistance on the pedal was the spring. No feeling from the rest of the clutch assembly unless somehow the mechanical load on the tranny end of the clutch has dropped to nill.

edit: doesn't pump up at all.

 

[oldman]

I was driving in first gear, shifted at 3800rpm under boost, into second and when I put the clutch in again ( to shift into 2nd gear), the clutch felt really funny, there was half as much pedal weight as there usually was. The only force being applied to the pedal was my foot, and the spring attached to the pedal's base.

If the fluid level is fine, I would suspect a snapped fork. The fork is attached to the end of the slave cylinder push rod, find the cylinder and you find the fork. It should be pushing the push rod back into the slave cylinder which I suspect isn't doing.

My AAA covers up to 100 miles , I have learned my lessons well.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm not sure how to check the fluid level.

I removed the cylinder push rod from the clutch release fork. I then tried the clutch pedal to see if the push rod would move. It moved about an 1/8 inch, surely not enough as it is supposed to.

After doing that I noticed the clutch pedal no did not return to the top position as it had before, so I put the push rod back onto the fork to see if that was why the pedal no longer came back up. Nothing changed. I suspect fiddling with the slave cylinder was what exacerbated the issue and produced the non-returning clucth pedal phenomenon. Thats a minor issue though, just a clue to what the real problem is.

When the pedal was depressed, with the slave cylinder's push rod in the correct position, the clutch fork barely moved. I could not move it by hand, I suspect not enough mechanical force on my part.

I then searched for the master cylinder but to no avail, I need to research that one some more. I did find a resevoir with a white cap (large) near my FPR. I opened it and saw it was full of a amber looking fluid. I closed it back up. I'm not sure if I was supposed to open that I had a feeling it would let air into whatever it is, but my grandfather (who just arrived today) insisted I check it.

RECAP

Symtoms:
-sticky clutch pedal
-car will not go into gear (probbaly means clutch will nto disengage, right?)
-push rod on slave cylinder barely moves, thus clucth fork barely moves

Things I've checked:
-pulled back boot on slave, looked fine, no leakes, seemed clean and well greased.
-opened that mystery (though probably well known) resevoir and found it was full to the top with amber fluid (oh yeah it said on it fill with dot 3 or dot 4 fluid only).

Thanks!

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I located the master cylinder (gosh that was a toughy and pulled back the boot on that one too, all is clean, well lubed and looking in working order.

problem is, nothing works still.

I went back under the car and yanked around on the fork, I found that the fork appears to be leaning towards the drivers side, and can, with a little force, be moved even further towards the drivers side at least a half inch. I could not manage to push it to the passengers side.

I also checked the other resevoir by the previous one I checked, it was full. The fuid is very dirty, but full.

I'm so lost.

 

[oldman]

1. The big reservoir is for the brake and the small one is for the clutch.

2. The fork leaning towards the driverside is correct, when you press on the clutch pedal, the hydraulic system suppose to push the fork to the passinger side to disengage.

3.

I removed the cylinder push rod from the clutch release fork. I then tried the clutch pedal to see if the push rod would move. It moved about an 1/8 inch, surely not enough as it is supposed to.

Never allow the slave piston to extend if the fork is not forcing it back. What you did allowed air to enter the system so you will have to bleed the clutch now which might not be a bad idea in troubleshooting anyway, especially if the fluid in the reservoir is dirty. Follow this link on how to bleed the system, follow the directions exactly as described until all fluids coming out are clear. Clutch fluid is the same as brake fluid.

4. If proper bleeding fails to fix the problem, you may still have

a. A defective slave cylinder allowing air to enter the system. You mentioned it was well greased, this troubles me because it's not suppose to be unless it's leaking.

b. A tired master cylinder which is not quite leaking yet.

c. Follow the clutch line from the reservoir and you will find a rubber hose situated under the intake pipe (not sure about the location on 2Gs), Make sure it's not leaking or soft which will expand under pressure causing pressure drop, you should use this opportunity to change it to a steel braided line anyway.

5. BUY A SERVICE MANUAL.

Good luck and post back what you find.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

1. The big reservoir is for the brake and the small one is for the clutch.

2. The fork leaning towards the driverside is correct, when you press on the clutch pedal, the hydraulic system suppose to push the fork to the passinger side to disengage.

3.

Never allow the slave piston to extend if the fork is not forcing it back. What you did allowed air to enter the system so you will have to bleed the clutch now which might not be a bad idea in troubleshooting anyway, especially if the fluid in the reservoir is dirty. Follow this link on how to bleed the system, follow the directions exactly as described until all fluids coming out are clear. Clutch fluid is the same as brake fluid.

4. If proper bleeding fails to fix the problem, you may still have

a. A defective slave cylinder allowing air to enter the system. You mentioned it was well greased, this troubles me because it's not suppose to be unless it's leaking.

b. A tired master cylinder which is not quite leaking yet.

c. Follow the clutch line from the reservoir and you will find a rubber hose situated under the intake pipe (not sure about the location on 2Gs), Make sure it's not leaking or soft which will expand under pressure causing pressure drop, you should use this opportunity to change it to a steel braided line anyway.

5. BUY A SERVICE MANUAL.

Good luck and post back what you find.

1. got it! just had to do some reading. I don't focus much attention to my brake and clutch fluids.

2. glad the fork is doing good

3. yes im 100% guilty it makes so much more sense now. I'll change the fluid tomorrow.

4. I'll have to wait and see tomorrow if problem is solved at all.
a) I went and double checked the slave cylinder, it's bone dry. I thought since my fingers were greasey it was lube from the rod. But I was wrong the grease came from elsewhere. The boot is CLEAN.
b) Master cylinder may be tired I suppose. But it too is exceptionally clean looking with not a drop near, under or around it. And that goes for the carpeting beneath it as well.
c) The rubber line is intact and quite stiff, no bulging or leaks on it. Does a SS line ONLY replace the rubber section? or is it intended to replace that solid line that travels all over the engine bay?

5. yeah I should do that for sure, then I won't look dumb asking where my master cylinder is!!

 

[oldman]

c) The rubber line is intact and quite stiff, no bulging or leaks on it. Does a SS line ONLY replace the rubber section? or is it intended to replace that solid line that travels all over the engine bay?

Just the rubber section.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Ok, today I finally bled the clutch.

I was all excited cause the pedal now came up off the floor and felt how it used to before any of this, with the car off.

I finish up and take the jack out from under the car to find the car not starting well at all, barely idling and then throwing a code.

I figured it was just cause the car has been sitting for a week. I'd check the code but my pocket logger refuses to turn on for some reason..yay for bad timming.

But I have new info.

-bleeding the clutch didnt fix it but the clutch now returns to top position.
-when the car is on the first half of the clutch is very easy, then after the middle it is stiff like it should be.
-the car makes a weird noise that goes away when the clutch is depressed to the half way point and beyond. It sounds like my TOB used to only its louder and clunkier than it used to be.

Could my TOB be the problem?

If it is something else I think I've cancelled out the master and slave cause they're in clean condition looking almost new. And theres no no air in the system and clutch feels much as it should when the car is off.

When the car is on everything changes, that mysterious horrible idle (she's always purred like a kitten so I'm baffled) and then now I ahve a noise, loud, from the tranny area. Sounds like my TOB only a different pitch and more clunky than it used to sound before any of this.

Whats my next move? Thanks!

 

[oldman]

I'm not an expert on the following subject so don't freak out. I did a search and came up with this but assuming master, slave and clutch fork and ball is fine, the symptoms are fairly similar. Again, it's just an idea.

Since the clutch places pressure on the crankshaft, many owners have reported clutch or shifting problems associated with the walking crank. Having the clutch 'stick' down on left-hand turns is often a telltale sign of crankwalk. Other symptoms include inconsistent engagement height, poor or rough engagement, difficulty shifting, ticking noises and varying pedal height or pressure. Another possibility is having the engine RPM decrease significantly when the clutch pedal is down.

 

[bojanglesracing]

i had got a parts car it ran fine they said it was a bad clutch turns out it was the final drive it would go thought the gears and still sit still just giving you some to think about sound like what this car did hope this is not your problem

 

[Lookin4aDSM]

i had the same problem in 90 laser rs turbo (thats how i bought it for 100 bucks hehe)

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm TRYING not to freak, but man thats rough stuff.

Do you think maybe my problem could NOT be crankwalk because I can't get the car in gear? That doesnt seem to be a pre req. for CW. Also it was all of a sudden, everything was perfect until that shift to third, no prior history and no warning signs.

I guess I should get the crank checked and take it to a shop to see if they can diagnose it. Problem is $$$, thats why I was eagerly hoping it was the master and slave cause I can do those myself.

I only have 2 jacks, 4 jack stands and sockets and wrenches. sure those are enough to work on a car but I don't know if I can handle dropping the transmission on my own. Nor do I think I would know what to look for once I took everything apart.

input?

btw, my bank statement reads ~ $75 right now

 

[oldman]

That's put that ugly possibility aside and focus on the hydraulic system. Describe again what is happening after the bled, keep it in simple terms so an oldman can easily understand.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

That's put that ugly possibility aside and focus on the hydraulic system. Describe again what is happening after the bled, keep it in simple terms so an oldman can easily understand.

I bled the system. Then I went to start the car. It was barely keeping itself alive, I had to give it a lot of gas to keep it going. It sounds horrible.

The car warmed up a bit and began to run normally except for a ticking sound that was much louder sounding than my usual throw out bearing tick I hear daily. The sound almost seemed in place of the TOB ticking. The sound was definitely coming from the passenger side and I'm positive directly from the tranny. The car threw a code which I cannot currently check. The car has been sitting for ~10 days.

The sound goes away when I press on the clutch, just like my TOB ticking normally would. The clutch pedal feels funny still, exactly how it felt befire I let air into the system and had to bleed the lines.

It felt soft and then mushy, and once again returns to normal position after being depressed. But the pedal still does not disengage my clutch and I still cannot shift gears.

 

[bojanglesracing]

sound like their still air in the system

 

[GTR-33]

It sounds to me that you are experiencing the onset of the crank walk. The rough idle and the clutch problems are tell tale signs of the way DSMs walk.

You need to get the crank endplay measured. Also check your oil for bits of thrust bearing.

 

[oldman]

Why can you ever have an easy question like what's "WOT", every time I try to help you my hair gets grayer.

What bothers me about this is the inconsistency of the pedal feel before and after the car is turned on. If this is still a hydraulic or bent fork issue, the pedal should feel the same either way. I have yet to crack open the tranny myself so it's hard for me to comment on the effects beyond the hydraulic system, hopefully someone else will chip in on that.

 

[Temper]

Id suggest taking it to a mechanic for clutch inspection.
If the clicking isnt from the drivers side near the timing belts it shouldnt be a CW (thou measuring crank play wont hurt, if u or mechanic will have a way to do it, after dropping the tranny).
Either its a hydraulic problem, or mechanical related to TOB/fork/pivot ball/clutch disk.
I wouldnt recomend dropping the tranny on your own without service manuals.
U can get a "backup copy" of service manuals on DSM cd from ebay cheap

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Thanks for the advice, I reall appreciate that.
Thanks to you too oldman, always there when I've got a tough question.

 

[RampageSTi]

I have the exact same problem as you, exact same symptoms... Did you ever find out the problem? I rebuilt the master cylinder on mine yesterday and bled it, and there was no difference. I am trying to figure out if the clutch fork is broken, but I don't understand why the pressure would be almost gone until the last 1/4 of travel and then get stiff. I have a 6 bolt motor, so crank walk would be unlikely (at least I hope so...). Anyone else have any ideas??

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Not sure if this helps but here goes.

I would put fluid in the clutch master cylinder and bleed the slave. Have some one work the pedal and you bleed. I have found this to sometimes work better as a procedure.

Open the bleeder and tell the "pedal person" to push. When the pedal is on the floor, tighten the bleed screw. Have them release the pedal. Wait a few seconds and repeat. Be mindful of the fluid level in the reservoir as it depletes rapidly. When you are sure it's bled and you have no leaks, like oldman said. Check for the travel on the pushrod from the slave cylinder. If it travels a pretty good distance, try the clutch. If it still doesn't operate properly you may be in for a trans removal for inspection. Good Luck

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Thanks for the posts, I'd love for this thread to be of use to someone other than myself.

I've yet to resolve my issue and I'm relieved to hear someone doesn't think it CW. Thats the exact method I used to bleed it, 2 people. One thing I was gonna mention is I'm going to bleed again, but this time use a method Defiant posted, something about holding the pushrod in while bleeding. I'm not enitrely sure what this will produce, perhaps greater vacuum in the line somehow aiding in its function?

But I'll definitaly keep you posted. I'm scared about this I may have to sell the car, and there's not a '91 talon in 800miles.

 

[RampageSTi]

Yeah, I tried bleeding the clutch again just for good measure. No dufference. There is still an abnormally hard pedal near the floor, but almost nothing until that point. The slave cylinder rod to the fork moves what seems to be the correct amount when the pedal is pressed. Could it be the pressure plate fingers broken off? How exactly would it act if it was a broken or bent fork? Not meaning to hijack the thread, just hoping that the both of us can get some answers to maybe help at least one of us. Definitely sounds like we have the same problem...