Built Motor ect..Yes, another turbo ?

[eclpsegsx12]

Now i know and feel the same way about turbo ?'s just as much as the next guy, but im to the point where i need to do it right and some opinions would be awesome.

My dilema for you all,

I have the following as my mods(motor is in machine shop and im organizing parts):

98 gsx 5-speed

6-bolt block:
-bored 20 over, honed, hot tanked, balanced/blueprinted, poloished crank, decked ect...
-ross 8.5:1 pistons
-eagle h-beams
-ARP rods,mains, head studs
-new front case with all new pulleys/tensioner
-ACT flywheel( or stock, havent decided)

Head(1g)
-clearwater cylinder heads did the work
-mild port and polish
-new stock valves,springs,retainers,cams,lifters,guides,seals ect...
-^^^ I got this from a friend as a trade and im going to upgrade to either comp race cams or hks 272s with crower springs/retainers and possibly stainless valves.
-cometic head gasket
-ARP head studs
-Magnus SMIM or Venoms new one(maybe stock if i run into funding problems)

Tranny
-re BUILT with TRE parts
-ACT 2600 and possibly X-ACT flywheel

Turbo setup
-right now im looking REALLY hard at the FP3052. I have been looking and researching for months and ive come to a conclusion that it is a very nice BB turbo with good spool up but at the time time costs quite a bit for the whole setup minus the manifold

My Goals are for 500 whp or close to it at least and i would like to do it on pump gas and occasionally on race gas(street driven and gas is $$$)

Like i just said, the car will be daily driven and i dont want it to be a turd untill high boost and high rpms.

I have priced out mnay options and the FP3052 minus the manifold will be around $1900 bucks

A full AGP 50 trim will come to about $1750 maybe more with a manifold

Now you may be thinking, "why doesnt he just do the AGP setup?" Well, i have a few reasons and for one, the wait is about a month and i dont have that amount of time. Also, im not sure if that 50 trim will be efficient up to 500 whp.

The good things about both turbos is that they dont have mitsu exhaust housings. I love the full garret setups and FP's new design for their stainless hot side.


I have many ideas and all of which are good and will produce some power. I want good spool up( 3400-3500 on a race motor) and i want it to be reliable and something that i can street drive and smoke some vipers and Z06's.

I do appreciate the people who are taking the time to read this and help a dsmer out. Ive been so busy figuring and re-figuring things out and im not sure exactly what would suit me best.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Seems like this board gets one of these threads a week. It does not take 687'ish hp to smoke zo6's how much of this stuff do you actually have done?

 

[eclpsegsx12]

I have the motor, tranny and a ton of the parts listed but im not ordering some things because i want to decide on the turbo.

Also, I DID NOT ask for anyone to say "Enough with these turbo questions, Im sick of them, blah, blah" I asked for some opinions from people that dont mind helping out. I know what im doing, and i have the majority of parts. I didnt say i wanted 687ish HP to smoke Z06's and im so sorry for throwing in a little joke, but it was used to make you understand that i want it streetable. Im looking for around 500 whp. I have the dsmlink V2 for my management, buschurs AFPR, fuel pump, injectos ect...Ive got the exhaust, mbc, yadda, yadda, yadda. The only reason im asking is because i have too much money wrapped up in this motor and i dont want to steer in the wrong direction by buying the wrong turbo.

Basically, if you are just going to bash and cry, then take it somehwere else. Otherwise, i do appreciate the help.

 

[1fast97gsx]

I have exactly what you have all done except I have just an oem rebuilt trans. TRE would not sell me just the parts ... Fu(Kers ... I went with an sc61 turbo and an equal length manifold. Full boost ( 25 psi ) is expected somewhere around 4500 or so which seems high but who cares. Once you hit boost you're gone. And you won't waste too much gas by hitting boost just daily driving . I will take it to the dyno as soon as I put in the oil lines and break it in but I am expecting 400 whp or so. This should be enough to beat ZO6s all day long. I ran 12.8 last year on a 16g ... the ZO6s were coming in around 12.5 and vipers around 12.1. Trust me man ... 400 whp is plenty. On race gas is when you can have the most fun

Oh yea .. and I just used my stock 7 bolt

 

[1fast97gsx]

You'll need a fmic as well. Also, I've come to the conclusion that a ball bearing turbo won't spool up initially much faster ... it's only loosing boost between shifts where the ball bearing factor comes into play.

 

[eclpsegsx12]

I have an FMIC also waiting...I forgot to mention it.

 

[gregmondro]

Originally posted by 1fast97gsx
You'll need a fmic as well. Also, I've come to the conclusion that a ball bearing turbo won't spool up initially much faster ... it's only loosing boost between shifts where the ball bearing factor comes into play.

depends which ball bearing turbo you get

head over to
http://www.agpturbo.com

look for the GT Series 44 turbo

it's a ball bearing turbo 44lb/min and a spool rpm of about, 3k-3100rpm.

nice chunk of change though $1300 for just the turbo, i'm not sure if you need a garrett manifold to bolt it up to aswell.

agp also sells a great t3/t4 kit for $1600 (includes the garrett manifold, turbo, oil lines, etc). that'd be your best bet. Forged internals are a waste imo unless you're gonna tap 600hp, if anything just go with the 2g pistons and big 1g rods.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

500whp comes out to about 687'ish total hp.

 

[gregmondro]

Originally posted by Liquid Illusion
500whp comes out to about 687'ish total hp.

i'd like to see where you came up with that figure from?

there some sort of equation you could show us all?

 

[Stanford]

Sorry but 500 wheel horsepower is NOT 687ish Crank horsepower.

 

[gregmondro]

yeah, doesnt sound possible
thats almsot 200hp drivetrain loss.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Originally posted by Stanford
Sorry but 500 wheel horsepower is NOT 687ish Crank horsepower.

Most use 25% drivetrain loss as rule of thumb.that is around 650 if his car makes exactly 500whp.

 

[Stanford]

Originally posted by Liquid Illusion
Most use 25% drivetrain loss as rule of thumb.that is around 650 if his car makes exactly 500whp.

No they don't.

You can just go around saying XXX whp makes XXX crank horsepower. It doesn't work like that. What kind of dyno being used, what kind of tranny, what kind of clutch, many things affect drivetrain loss. I don't even think the sub 10 second guys lose 150 horsepower to the wheels.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

[

You can just go around saying XXX whp makes XXX crank horsepower

Sure you can but its really not relevant. I was simply using the percentage figure to show him how much power he is trying to make. None it this really matters because these kinds of threads never materialize any way.

what kind of tranny,

There is only one type of tranny used in a awd dsm.

what kind of clutch

As long as its not slipping it makes no difference

I don't even think the sub 10 second guys lose 150 horsepower

You dont have to.

 

[eclpsegsx12]

so an automatic dsm tranny will make the same power as the 5-speed dsm tranny? ha......what about a dogbox rally setup?

there are things that affect the loss in the drivetrain.

 

[Stanford]

Actually we have Automatic trannys and 5 speed trannys, autos lose more to the wheels.

Your clutch does matter, but you can think otherwise.

Lastly, I would like to send out congrats to DRE for making 650crank horsepower on PUMP gas:laugh: well according to your math.

anyway back on topic, this is pointless.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Originally posted by Stanford
Actually we have Automatic trannys and 5 speed trannys, autos lose more to the wheels.

Your clutch does matter, but you can think otherwise.

Lastly, I would like to send out congrats to DRE for making 650crank horsepower on PUMP gas:laugh: well according to your math.

anyway back on topic, this is pointless.

Actually we have Automatic trannys and 5 speed trannys, autos lose more to the wheels.

In this context only one type of tranny in question. lets try to focus on this topic.

Your clutch does matter, but you can think otherwise.

Please explain how clutch type effects Hp on a dyno. As long as it does not slip as I have already stated.

Lastly, I would like to send out congrats to DRE for making 650crank horsepower on PUMP gas:laugh: well according to your math.

Actually i think he has stated that himself. His accomplishments are amazing to say the least.

anyway back on topic, this is pointless.

very

 

[gregmondro]

so in short, don't spend the extra dough to do a forged engine, if anything do 2g pistons and big 1g rods.

spend the other money you'll have saved for repairs/other mods

 

[eclpsegsx12]

If you are talking about me then its too late. Im running ross/eagles and the motor is almost complete. But in general, i would agree but my case is different.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

I dont' know how you can say forged internals are a waste unless you are over 600hp. If you are doing a rebuild it cost an extra 700~900 for eagles and JE's. And then you can throw what ever you want at it. Plus you get forged internals you can add timing to your motor and make way more horsepower due to less knock and reduced heat spots and so on.... and I know everybody is like me I built my motor with high 11's in mind. Two months later went even bigger and now am going for mid 10's. If I rebuilt my motor stock--(6 bolt) then I would probly be rebuilding it by now. I know a stock 6 bolt can't handle 26psi on a 60-1, 19 degrees of timing, reving out to 8.2k. IMO you are wasteing your money getting your rods machined for 2g pistons and 1g rods.

 

[kooka]

a stock 6 bolt 4g63 can take 550whp. since that hp level wasnt high enough for you, you went ahead and built the motor. therefore, you better go way bigger than 3052, otherwise your built motor is being wasted and youll be just another dsm'r with a terribly overkilled setup.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

a stock 6 bolt 4g63 can take 550whp. since that hp level wasnt high enough for you, you went ahead and built the motor. therefore, you better go way bigger than 3052, otherwise your built motor is being wasted and youll be just another dsm'r with a terribly overkilled setup.

Correction only an Idiot would drop as much time and money into rebuilding a motor around an AVERAGE hp that a motor setup can hold. Yea it can hold 550hp ON AVERAGE. My car is driven every day. You call it overkill. I call it security. I have shep's race spec trans in my car, you call that overkill too, I meanit only cost 3600 to rebuild mine and I know it shall hold, or i could spend 1800 blow it up again, 1800+ what ever I broke. over and over. ITS CALLED SECURITY, plus it has way better advantages then cast internals. A.K.A.- dont be a cheap as$ when you are trying to make a race car, you will find your self spending more money going back and fixing things right the second time. I learned this after the 4th trans and $4800 worth of paper weight,when I could have just done it right got shep from start and been in hole 3800 and only changed it once.

 

[kooka]

Correction only an Idiot would drop as much time and money into rebuilding a motor around an AVERAGE hp that a motor setup can hold. Yea it can hold 550hp ON AVERAGE.

No, a smart person would. It costs a fraction of what you paid to properly rebuild a motor with stock parts. stock parts will take your 3052 upgrade just as easily.

You call it overkill. I call it security.

If i had a nickle for everytime i heard this. truth is, theres a handful of people out there making 500whp on bone stock motors making tons of runs and still driving them around to this day. look at blaha's old 1g. he ran a 10.5x years ago and the car is still a daily driving with no problems. you can call all these cases flukes and luck if you want...

I have shep's race spec trans in my car, you call that overkill too, I meanit only cost 3600 to rebuild mine and I know it shall hold, or i could spend 1800 blow it up again, 1800+ what ever I broke. over and over.

not discussing the transmission. im sure your trans will take everything a 3052 will throw at it, just like a stock one would.

it has way better advantages then cast internals.

id love to hear these advantages on your daily driver.

A.K.A.- dont be a cheap as$ when you are trying to make a race car

My car is driven every day.

a daily driven race car. interesting.

I learned this after the 4th trans and $4800 worth of paper weight,when I could have just done it right got shep from start and been in hole 3800 and only changed it once.

4 trannys and youre making a thread about upgrading to a 3052. perhaps its the driver, not the parts.

all bs aside, you have a nice setup. it will take way more than a 3052, so why not go bigger? you can run a 3052 on a stock 7 bolt no problem, why not take advantage of all the "time and money" you spent on your built motor?

 

[sweet97]

I am fairly new to DSM's having been a Mitsu Conquest owner in the past. I see a post about a guy asking about a turbo which is a complicated choice so I check it out. I need to LEARN as much as I can.
Eclipsegsx12 starts his post by apologizing for "asking another turbo post". Lists his mods and possible turbo's he's considering. Then he gets ripped for "not dotting his I's and crossig his T's".
He's spent a lot of money in the past and he's building a "bullitproof" motor. His choice, his money. He calls it a race car that is a daily driver. That's cool if he drives responsibly! Don't we all build our cars to be the best we can make them? I for one do.
Remember he started out by being apologetic concerning his question. I am installing an EVO 16G today. I'm in a different class as far as the level of my car is concerned. NO ONE who calls him/her self a member of this club is on a higher level(class) than another as a person. I thought a club was where members HELP each other.
All I learned from this post was DO NOT ask about turbo selection. Rely on the vendor to make the choice? To me the turbo is the heart of the motor and I want to learn as much as possible by those who possibly have used one. If it's such a bummer to see a post about a turbo how about a "Turbo Forum"?
Well I feel worse for writing this due to having to regurgitate the "pollution".

 

[turbotalon92]

I am fairly new to DSM's having been a Mitsu Conquest owner in the past. I see a post about a guy asking about a turbo which is a complicated choice so I check it out. I need to LEARN as much as I can.
Eclipsegsx12 starts his post by apologizing for "asking another turbo post". Lists his mods and possible turbo's he's considering. Then he gets ripped for "not dotting his I's and crossig his T's".
He's spent a lot of money in the past and he's building a "bullitproof" motor. His choice, his money. He calls it a race car that is a daily driver. That's cool if he drives responsibly! Don't we all build our cars to be the best we can make them? I for one do.
Remember he started out by being apologetic concerning his question. I am installing an EVO 16G today. I'm in a different class as far as the level of my car is concerned. NO ONE who calls him/her self a member of this club is on a higher level(class) than another as a person. I thought a club was where members HELP each other.
All I learned from this post was DO NOT ask about turbo selection. Rely on the vendor to make the choice? To me the turbo is the heart of the motor and I want to learn as much as possible by those who possibly have used one. If it's such a bummer to see a post about a turbo how about a "Turbo Forum"?
Well I feel worse for writing this due to having to regurgitate the "pollution".

Sorry guys, there is no such thing as a bullit proof motor. If you don't have any idea about how to tune, you can blow a motor with the best parts money can buy. Nothing can withstand extreme temps and knock for too long.

If you tune right, it will stay together for the power levels most will aquire. My stock motor was re-assembled with 2 g pistons and took dyno proven 480whp and 9000rpm all day at the track and was driven everyday until I got sick of not having AC. Should have never removed it. By the way I used the SCM61 and I highly recomend it. good luck with your build up, there is capability of making big power woth the set-up.