Anyone run TCE BSL/1.10" brake kits on a 1G?

[jtmcinder]

Todd -

There's obviously two ways to get more rotor mass: thicker and larger diameter. Does the balljoint issue suggest a larger (thinnish) rotor and 18s? And, if so, is there a straightforward way to avoid moving too much bias to the front or do you have to get larger rears, too?

- Jtoby

 

[Todd TCE]

While suppliers and casting do vary, generally a wider rotor provides only a greater air gap between the rotor cheeks. This improves air flow and to a point a bit more mass if you factor in the wider webs. Cheek thickness can vary a bit also as I said, thus a 1.10 to a 1.25 changes by about 3lbs.

Wider VS larger for mass gains both provide somewhat the same benefits. But larger OD changes the torque value also and generates more swept area. (pad area over rotor area, one revelution)

Ball joints are often the limiting factor for clearance. I can put a 1.625 wide rotor on a 1G if we were to make a hat with zero offset- a flat plate. But every time you make the rotor wider you also move the caliper outward as well. Think of it as simply a rotor getting wider can only be towards the wheel and the caliper follows this.

If you were to go to 16" rotors there's a chance you could run a larger offset hat and place the ball joint inside the back side of the rotor opening actually. Not that I think you need 16" rotors...

 

[mavisky]

While suppliers and casting do vary, generally a wider rotor provides only a greater air gap between the rotor cheeks. This improves air flow and to a point a bit more mass if you factor in the wider webs. Cheek thickness can vary a bit also as I said, thus a 1.10 to a 1.25 changes by about 3lbs.

Wider VS larger for mass gains both provide somewhat the same benefits. But larger OD changes the torque value also and generates more swept area. (pad area over rotor area, one revelution)

Ball joints are often the limiting factor for clearance. I can put a 1.625 wide rotor on a 1G if we were to make a hat with zero offset- a flat plate. But every time you make the rotor wider you also move the caliper outward as well. Think of it as simply a rotor getting wider can only be towards the wheel and the caliper follows this.

If you were to go to 16" rotors there's a chance you could run a larger offset hat and place the ball joint inside the back side of the rotor opening actually. Not that I think you need 16" rotors...

Christ, a 16" rotor would need what, like a 18-19" wheel to clear everything properly. I've seen the 15" rotors and brembo's on the Dodge Ram SRT-10's and they run 22's.

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[underradar92]

I just ordered 6 piston 13x1.25 brakes for my 1g (from Todd) yesterday. I will definitely let you guys know how everything works out. My first track day is 4/8-9/06.

 

[Rx3]

Another suggestion for tires, keep an eye on Hoosier's website, they tend to offload excess stock from the Grand Am Rolex cup for super cheap periodically. That's how I got my last set of track tires. Plenty of grip and they last quite a while.

 

[jtmcinder]

Wider VS larger for mass gains both provide somewhat the same benefits. But larger OD changes the torque value also and generates more swept area. (pad area over rotor area, one revelution)

That's why I asked if there was a simple way to prevent the brakes from being too front-biased, such as front caliper pistons with less area, a new prop valve, or larger rear rotors and/or more rear piston area.

Of course, if you aren't going to solve the problem using larger, thin front rotors, then this is only curiosity.

- Jtoby

 

[underradar92]

a. 1g's and all dsms, for that matter all fwd based chassis's, are front weight biased. b. 1g front brake rotors are SMALLER than the rear rotors. I figure that it will take a pretty big change just to make this imbalance not an imbalance. I can't afford another set of tires yet, hopefully though, I can learn a bit from this.

 

[Todd TCE]

The simple way is to match the piston to rotor relationship properly. General rule of thumb is larger rotor, less piston area, tune with pad.

You can experiment with combos here,
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake_bias_calculator.html

Then don't forget to factor in weight distribution based on how you operate the car,
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/dynamic_dist.html

The harder you expect to brake and the greater the weight shift the less effective the rear brakes become.

 

[underradar92]

In the weight bias calculator, are the weights you have entered indicative of an awd dsm? If so, thank you. Also, are polymatrix rear pads available for dsm's? If not what pad brand would you (or anyone reading this) recommend?

 

[Todd TCE]

The weights are generic. You'll have to put in your own numbers. Perhaps someone will share their corner weights with you.

The Polymatrix line of pads is dedicated to the Wilwood (and other afermarket) caliper only. No stock parts for the DSM. Only way to run them is in a rear kit.

 

[underradar92]

The weights are generic. You'll have to put in your own numbers. Perhaps someone will share their corner weights with you.

The Polymatrix line of pads is dedicated to the Wilwood (and other afermarket) caliper only. No stock parts for the DSM. Only way to run them is in a rear kit.

Cool on the weights, I saw somewhere a list of corner weights, I can't remember where yet. It'll come to me. I think RRE has some listed. Maybe I can try some Hawk pads or something in the rear. I think I've jacked this thread long enough.

 

[Rx3]

The simple way is to match the piston to rotor relationship properly. General rule of thumb is larger rotor, less piston area, tune with pad.

You can experiment with combos here,
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake_bias_calculator.html

Then don't forget to factor in weight distribution based on how you operate the car,
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/dynamic_dist.html

The harder you expect to brake and the greater the weight shift the less effective the rear brakes become.

Oh yeah, this should keep me busy on my lunchbreak tomorrow.

 

[Todd TCE]

Christ, a 16" rotor would need what, like a 18-19" wheel to clear everything properly. I've seen the 15" rotors and brembo's on the Dodge Ram SRT-10's and they run 22's.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/images/bbkinstalled0037wo.jpg

 

[mavisky]

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/images/bbkinstalled0037wo.jpg

What size wheel and rotor is that? I'm guessing a 16" rotor and 18" wheel?

 

[Todd TCE]

Actually it's a 15.3" rotor on a 19.

Couldn't do the full 16 due to caliper clearance. The caliper body is 13.25" tall and would not fit inside the 19!

 

[Ludachris]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll be doing open track days and AutoX. I didn't know the balljoints were the limiting factor for the brakes, I thought it was the distance between the plane of the wheel hub and the inside edge of the wheel spoke. I was looking at some Kosei K1-TS wheels in 17x8 or 17x9. They weigh in at 15-16 lbs. for $239-259 TireRack retail price. I figured those would work with the brake kit I'm looking at, or at least come close enough to where I'd only have to use 1/4" spacers. Problem is, I don't even know if those will fit for sure. And how can I spend the money on the wheels if I don't know for sure?

This is driving me nuts. It's frustrating not knowing which wheels I can buy to fit the brakes I want. It seems like owners of other kinds of cars don't have these kind of problems. Maybe this is why not many people race DSMs these days? I mean, yeah, I can download the template - but is it realistic to think a wheel vendor will A: have each wheel I'm interested in, in stock to measure, and B: will even be willing to do the measurement?

 

[underradar92]

I've got Enkei RS7's in 17" (I forget the width, I think 7.5") and the brakes mentioned earlier, should be here next week. I'll post what spacers, if any, I have to make. By my guesstimation it shouldn't need any more than .15" because my rims have an arched spoke & already have a lot of room. We'll see though

 

[Ludachris]

I've got Enkei RS7's in 17" (I forget the width, I think 7.5") and the brakes mentioned earlier, should be here next week. I'll post what spacers, if any, I have to make. By my guesstimation it shouldn't need any more than .15" because my rims have an arched spoke & already have a lot of room. We'll see though

Please do let me know how those fit.

 

[underradar92]

I will post as soon as the tires hit the floor. I may even get a cable, so I can download pix from my phone, or borrow an actual camera.

 

[underradar92]

I haven't been able to post my findings yet, my order was delayed. It just shipped late last week, so it should be here any day now, I can't wait!

 

[underradar92]

My shiny new brakes just showed up, yesterday. Worked on the car late, so I couldn't post last eve. I have to make spacers .34" thick! Didn't see that one coming I guess my wheels aren't too caliper friendly So, I'm making spacers with a raised center (similar to H&R drs) to locate the wheel, and getting longer wheel studs. That'll show those wheels. Turn 8, I am not afraid! I suppose that doesn't help you one bit though, sorry on that.

 

[underradar92]

Alright, I made my spacers .380 thick (just under 10mm) and now I have a Todd approved (he recommended .080-.100) .130 space to my spokes & a LOT of room to the inner rim. Now I can't find anyone who makes longer lug studs. Any help on this would be appreciated.

 

[Suparata]

KYO-EI 52mm wheel studs
Scroll down the page.
Yet I'm not sure those will work.

 

[underradar92]

Yes they will, they are 22mm longer so that easily will do the trick, thanks.

 

[WatchItExplode]

So it's an Enkei RS7 17x7.5....what is the offset?

I'm thinking of running 17x8 +35mm 5Zigen FN01-RC and want to run a similar brake setup...I might just bite the bullet like you did and see if it fits. If not, I either return the wheels or make it work with spacers.

We should turn this thread into a wheel/brake fitment database.