Alignment problems

[whatturbo]

I just installed new shocks and springs (Koni yellows and GC coilover kit 430/350) and took my car to get aligned. I don't like the results, so I was hoping someone could give me useful advise:

Camber/Toe/Caster
Front Left :-1.3°/.10°/5.2°
Front Right:-1.3°/.05°/5.9°

Rear Left :-.4°/.90°
Rear Right:-.4°/.50°

I think the front camber is OK because people are always trying to get more negative camber in the front. Shouldn't they have been able to adjust the front toe to zero using the tie rods?

I don't think that's enough negative camber in the rear, but the toe is the real problem. They said they can't adjust the rear toe. They said they can only perform a 2-wheel alignment not a 4-wheel. Is that true? If so how will I get that closer to spec?

Right now the front is about 3/4" lower than the rear. If everything went well at the alignment shop I would have been OK leaving it that way, but it didn't so I'm going to raise the front 3/8" and lower the rear 3/8". That will get a little more negative camber in the rear. I added ~3/8" worth of washers (4 washers 2.5mm thick) to adjust for the extra camber of lowering. Should I remove one or more of those washers? I was just going by what has worked for other people.

The car is very loose. It almost seems dangerous to drive because it won't track. If I change lanes I can feel the car swaying when it is supposed to be going straight again. I hope someone can help me with some information and advise. I can't afford to guess and keep getting $50 alignments each time.

Thanks for any help.

 

[wret]

The statement that they "can't" do a 4-wheel alignment could mean one of several things:
a. They aren't equipped to do 4-wheel alignments.
b. The rear toe adjustment cam bolts are stuck and they don't want to deal with it.
c. They are incompetent.
d. All of the above.

Don't obsess about your camber. There are a couple ways to optimize it listed in the FAQ's, but it won't hurt to leave it as is. Your rear toe should be brought as close to zero as soon as possible.

 

[whatturbo]

Thanks wret. Rear toe adjustment cam bolts...I knew I read about people adjusting rear toe on our cars. I think the camber in the rear will come back to a respectable level when I lower the rear. I just measured all the GC spring perches to lower 1" when I was installing them and forgot that adjusting the rear camber would raise the ride height a little.

Thanks again
Shawn

 

[jtmcinder]

Camber/Toe/Caster
Front Left :-1.3°/.10°/5.2°
Front Right:-1.3°/.05°/5.9°

Rear Left :-.4°/.90°
Rear Right:-.4°/.50°

Your camber is fine and your caster is great. Your front toe is in spec, but I would have asked them to set it to zero (or a little out if you autocross). Your rear toe is totally off. The car is so toed-in (assuming the normal convention of positive = in) that you are doing a number on your tires. Max spec is .24 degrees (in) per side. I'd ask for zero in the rear, too.

If they can get a reading of rear toe then they can set rear toe. They are either bozos or the rear cams are stuck, as suggested by Ron.

Go somewhere else. But do them a favor and shoot lots of PB'laster or Thrust or whatever at the rear toe arms before you go.

- Jtoby

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

I totaly agree with Ron and Jtoby.

Your rear end is probably going all over the road correct.

A lot of places get it to as close as they feel like. Some of them even assume you will not ask for the before and after sheet. Nor do they offer it without you asking. These are te places to stay away from.

I make sure I tell them when I take the care there that I want it the toe at 0. If they say ok, I repeat it and explain I will not take the car any other way or I will not pay. I have found one shop that will do my car But they knew I was an ass after the first time so they get my stuff done correct now.


Correct me if I am wrong here becasue I do not have coil overs. But evertime you adjut them, they change the whole geometry of the car, so basically you just waisted time on an alighnment. Am I wrong on that?

 

[wret]

Correct me if I am wrong here becasue I do not have coil overs. But evertime you adjut them, they change the whole geometry of the car, so basically you just waisted time on an alighnment. Am I wrong on that?

You are right, but in this case it may actually work in his favor. Raising the front the amount he proposed would decrease toe out. It may even get him close to the optimum zero in the front. The back is screwed up already so now is as good a time as any.

Nice to see you, Ed.

 

[jtmcinder]

Raising the front the amount he proposed would decrease toe out. It may even get him close to the optimum zero in the front.

Whoa, dude. The convention is that positive is toe-in. Raising the nose will make it worse.

- Jtoby

 

[wret]

Right you are. I was thinking in-negative / out-positive. Raising the front will make his toe in worse.

 

[jtmcinder]

You know, I was thinking about this some more and I'll bet they have the convention backwards. The car was recently lowered. It should have gained a tone of rear toe-out and a little front toe-out, and that's what the alignment says. It's almost as if they measured the car and did nothing.

Step One for the thread-starter is to find out whether positive is in or out. Otherwise, whatever was paid was wasted.

- Jtoby

 

[whatturbo]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I realize the first alignment was a waste. If they had gotten my front and rear toe to zero I would have left it alone. My main concern was that they told me they cannot adjust the rear toe. After reading your responses I know it can be adjusted. I sprayed what I believe to be the rear toe adjustment with a liberal dose of PB Blaster, and made an appointment for Tuesday at a local race shop to get it aligned the right way. I ended up just lowering the rear all the way to the front (3/4"). Both front and rear are now 13.5" from the center of the wheel to the fender. It's all making sense now. From what I've found in my searches, I'll have the new shop set it to 0 toe in the front and -.1 in the rear. Hopefully it will all be resolved Tuesday morning. Until then I'm going to stop driving it. I've been 30 miles and the rear tires are already showing feathering on the inside. Not good.

Shawn

 

[whatturbo]

This is getting really frustrating. The race shop I took it to didn't have an alignment rack. They align with a string and said they couldn't get it as accurate as I was asking. I left there and took it to a local tire shop. They said they could do it and get it to 0 toe front and rear, but it might scratch the rims. So I put the factory wheels on and brought it to them today. I left it for the whole afternoon, and when I picked it up they said they couldn't do it either. They said it is too low, which I thought was strange because it's only ~1" lower than stock. So far I've had it to a shop that could measure the angles but was too lazy to fix anything, a shop that could guess at it as well as I could with some string, and a shop with the wrong equipment to do anything. I'm not looking for advice anymore...just venting. Hopefully soon I'll find a shop that can fix it. It shouldn't be this hard to find someone to align my car.

Shawn