Alcohol/Methanol = no intercooler?

[Jon Lane]

I'm curious if this concept has been used on the 4G63: http://highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0410pon_butler/

 

[Defiant]

They'll get a lot more out of that motor with intercoolers. Just water, dry ice, methanol, NO2 or whatever else won't work as well.... which is why intercoolers are used.

If it works on DSMs, it's being done.

If not, it ain't.

 

[Jon Lane]

I'm curious about this because their power/displacement ratio (over 6.5) is roughly the same as a top 4G63...

 

[KGB Pilot125]

They'll get a lot more out of that motor with intercoolers. Just water, dry ice, methanol, NO2 or whatever else won't work as well.... which is why intercoolers are used.

If it works on DSMs, it's being done.

If not, it ain't.

I think I am going to have to disagree with you. I will have to do some more research because I cant recall the whole conversation but alky carries soemthing like 80 percent of the oxygen needed for combustion so you efficency goes through the roof to like 150-180 percent. also it burns so cold that you wouldnt need an intercooler now you could probably get the same inlet temps with dry ice and a liquid intercooler but with added weight. I know on my old 1g I was running 22 psi on the stock sidemount with an SMC alky kit running 50/50 water and alky and seeing inlet temps 5-10 above ambient. thats pretty good I think. Ill find some more info and post back.

 

[Joesmoke]

"If it works on DSMs, it's being done. If not, it ain't."

I agree with that statement for the most part, but it seems that the DSM camp is a little slow to adopt some proven performance modifications IE water injection. People are slowly coming around and excepting it as a good thing, if thats the route you want to take.

As far as injection and no intercooler, you will lose performance without the IC. Although meth can drop temps up to around 40%, (as noted with the turbo buick crowd) you still would like that IC for more temp drop.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

if you do water/alky injection with no IC then yes you could lose performance but if you use straight alky instead of gasoline as your only fuel source I dont think you would have a need for an I/C

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

If you're doing alcy/water/meth injection, you need an intercooler.

If you are running straight meth, no need for an intercooler. Run a straight pipe, 6:1 air/fuel, and hammer on the throttle.

 

[Defiant]

it seems that the DSM camp is a little slow to adopt some proven performance modifications IE water injection. People are slowly coming around and excepting it as a good thing, if thats the route you want to take.

The Buick ...Starfire?... of the sixties used WI with its turbocharging. The problem is that you need to keep the water filled, and that's too much for Joe D. Customer. That D's for DORK. Hell, it's hard enough keeping oil and coolant in a car for most people. And nevermind air in the tires, witness the tumbling SUVs.

The drawback wth WI isn't how well it works, it's getting the unwashed past a phobic reaction to "hydrolock" (which you can't do with a proper WI system), and getting them to keeping it in operating condition. It's just too much to ask of the modern world.

Running a car on methanol, or injecting enough to affect power output is an entirely different galaxy.

 

[91TSiAWD_Mark]

H2O/Alk injection has been used well on hot-air turbo buicks. Early (84-85 iirc) GN's didn't have I/C's, so some people have gone this route.

However, removing a perfectly fine IC setup on a DSM and running straight alky injectioon is like putting on octogaon tires. Sure it'll work, but why try it

Alky injection ontop of the stock IC works very nicely though as a knock supressant...

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I was under the impression we were talking about alky as being the only form of fueling.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

H2O/Alk injection has been used well on hot-air turbo buicks. Early (84-85 iirc) GN's didn't have I/C's, so some people have gone this route.

However, removing a perfectly fine IC setup on a DSM and running straight alky injectioon is like putting on octogaon tires. Sure it'll work, but why try it

Alky injection ontop of the stock IC works very nicely though as a knock supressant...

Are you serious? Do you have any idea of the kind of horsepower gains to be had by doing exactly what you said of removing the IC and running straight meth?

 

[Defiant]

Wait, wait, wait.

Are you considering running a car on methanol? On the street?

There may be some other kind of meth use involved here.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Wait, wait, wait.

Are you considering running a car on methanol? On the street?

There may be some other kind of meth use involved here.

I'm just commenting on the fact that it will show huge power gains. If someone wants to run it on the street, it really isn't that bad. You have to run 2x the amoutn of fuel for meth, and it's like $2.50/gallon, so it'd be like buying regular gas for $5/gallon.. almost turbo blue

 

[91TSiAWD_Mark]

Besides the fact its totally illegal and VERY VERY VERY dangerous.

Theres a reason #1) methanol drag cars run on only like 60% meth. #2) they only carry enough fuel for 1 pass. and even then it can explode. Methanol has SO much more latent energy is increadably dangerous....

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Besides the fact its totally illegal and VERY VERY VERY dangerous.

Theres a reason #1) methanol drag cars run on only like 60% meth. #2) they only carry enough fuel for 1 pass. and even then it can explode. Methanol has SO much more latent energy is increadably dangerous....

It's actually 90%, and it's one thing to be run in a top fuel dragster, but I have yet to see an incident with it occur in uni-body racing.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

Besides the fact its totally illegal and VERY VERY VERY dangerous.

Theres a reason #1) methanol drag cars run on only like 60% meth. #2) they only carry enough fuel for 1 pass. and even then it can explode. Methanol has SO much more latent energy is increadably dangerous....

atually you are thinking about nitromethane andthe 10 percent rule.

champ cars and indycars cars carry 50 gallons of methonal at a time and go 240 miles an hour. its actually easier to put out than gas and the fumes arent flammable. only bad thing is during the day time the flames are invislbe.

 

[Jon Lane]

I am the OP and I didn't specify use. It's clear this is race-only. I was interested in the theoretical viability of this and whether anyone had actually done it. I think the plumbing simplicity of such a setup is appealing.

 

[Defiant]

Oh. Then, it's just a bench-race thing, is it.

Well, okay.....

 

[Slipstream]

Oh. Then, iWell, okay.....

I know what to get defiant for christmas, I've seen him use 4 new lock pictures today..he must be running low by now. Who wants to chip in and buy defiant a stock photography disk of lock images :laugh:

 

[MNGSX]

Methanol drag cars can and do run high % even 100%.

Now NITROmeth cars are another story... Straight nitro cant even tolerate the stock compression ratio of a 1970-80s smog mobile.

If it knocks eaisier it burns easier.. Alcohol fuel is less dangerous than gas. Nitro is the worst.

Methanol is the best performing alcohol. But it still is very corosive to fuel systems. It is expensive, poisonous and has the highest rate of fuel consumption.

I still promote ethanol for forced induction performance.. It does'nt take as many gallons of fuel as methanol.. Still beats gas (even VP116). It wont eat your pump or injectors and you wont have to flush them. I ran the DSM on 85% to 98% mixes (ethanol/93 octane gas).

Oh yes FYI.... I kept the DSM... I sold the TT f-body project car and parts to invest in my own buisness....

I had a v6 base camaro w.o engine & trans. LS1 (truck 6.0 block). Basically I had tube chassised the cheapest car I could find in the body style I liked... I had a used (not much) full race rossler auto trans... Basically I was getting real close to a single digit car..... Someone I know bought the drag chassis and is putting in the rear end (fab 9) and blown big block from his prostreet 70's camaro.... The whole all out drag sled thing was fun and all but I needed to focus on other things... I drove a couple sleds at the track people I knew owned. I got it out of my system on those runs. A dedicated drag car with 1.5k HP has a PITA to fun factor in the opposite direction as a DSM... Big big bucks, trailer queen only (better have an enclosed 5th wheel with a BIG tool chest), it chews up big expensive slicks like tyson does ears... etc... You guys dont realize that a GSX really is about the cheapest car to make run 1/4 ets far below 98% of the masses.. Try building a solid single digit sled.. That is expensive. Transmission new price Also try driving just a mild backhalved prostreet around a right turn in town to a car show... You get the spooled and tubbed hop....


So I'm back to just DSM's.. I still have the SX fuel system and SSG flywheel etc... the parts that did'nt sell were the ones I'm glad I still have.. Expect one of the fastest streetable cars on the least expensive/environmentally friendly fuel.. I'm not going to chase down shep... I was'nt planning on chasing john force with the f-bod either... Just a fun hobby. Just shooting for 10 sec range ets with the more consistency and less cost and breakage than most people in the same range.

As for 100% methanol and no IC it can be done... An IC is not manditory with this fuel in most cases.... In fact it may mostly make things worse. The heat from the turbo helps vaporize the fuel and keep the mix warm enough to ignite with the spark.

You can add an IC and boost compression and make more power provided you don't lift/blow a head or break a rod. With the Methanol plus an IC and the combination of boost and static compression I hear most people throwing around it wont want to run due to the opposite of knock.. Kind of like trying to run #2 diesel in a gas engine.. It just wont want to light up with that cool of a dense charge... Increase the compression enough and the cool mix that entered the chamber will get squished hard enough to light. Compressing a gas increases its heat...

I have done the research and math. 98% ethanol is the best all around fuel for a turbo car. The price is right. It performs awesome and it is easier to work with than methanol.. With ethanol I'd run a IC... It does'nt have to be the aboslute best one.... Get a good one... no junk... but the largest spearco you can fit is not needed... Just a low pressure drop decent efficiency one will be fine. The fuel does cool off the charge... Not as much as methanol but stil ALOT more than gas. Basically a street front mount on ethanol will outperform a race frontmount of the same type on gasoline.


The big 3 domestic auto makers have many production cars that run on 85% ethanol... FFV's Flex Fuel Vehicles.. Ever see a production daily driver on methanol.... Nope...

It just shows that it is a better real world fuel... If you have F1 pit crew experience or methanol dragster experience by all means feel free to apply your expertise in methanol to a DSM... However , On my first attempts I could run on 85% and 98% ethanol with a home built car. Automotive nut... yes.. crew chief, lignenfelter, smokey yunick.. etc no... but the ethanol conversion still was pretty easy considering the scope of the project.

Sooner or later someone... Maybe me... maybe not... will figure out how to interface the production fuel sensor from an FFV with the AEM EMS. Changing the fuel map to match the mix currently in flowing thru the fuel lines will then be done automatically in real time. That is how the production FFVs handle allowing the owner to just fuel up with anything from 87-93 octane regular... the 85% ethanol summer mix and the (I believe) 65% ethanol winter mix....

I had to drain and switch maps manually when going to or from 85% to 98% ethanol... The sensor can tell the difference so you'd just fill and fly... New ideas and technologies are not to be feared.

 

[coolingmist]

Water injection will do far more for any boost application than any intercooler will. Water injection has the ability to bring your cars intake temps to ambient on even the most hot day. It has ability to steam clean your engine, allow you to advance timing or run low octain gas. Take any turbo or supercharged car that is running at its max potential tune it with the best intercooler you can find. If you install water injection on that car you will be able to extend the limits of that car even further.

I have nothing against intercoolers as they are important. Intercoolers are reliable and thats why they are used.

 

[Jehu]

I'd like to see someone run as much boost with only a water injection system/no IC compared to someone who's running only an adequately sized intercooler...

 

[LucasEnglish]

I have been runing 30%alc with 70% water for 3 years. I ran 2 of the largest Aquamist jets which is about 600cc at 100psi with the shure flow pump. This worked great I could run 25psi on pump with 15deg total timing. The main problem with the water is if I ran richer than a 11.5 AFR the car would miss. I made my best power at 12.5 AFR with 0 knock to 7k in 5th. I have now gone to 4 of the largest aquamist jets with the pump set to 170 psi and straight meth. I am runing about 2000cc of alc now. All I can say is water is ###. I am now at 32psi on pump with a red and around 22deg total adv. I took the car to 7k in 5th several times with no knock. I have my setup on a solnoid so when I push the clutch in for WOT shifts it turns the alc off. I had a intake back fire with wot shifts and the alc on all the time. I have the alc turn on at 10psi. I am now at a 10.5 AFR with no sputtering and better power than race gas. I hope to be in the 10s next year on pump. Now the only thing I have to figure out is what AFR is good power, because on gas thay say best power is around 12.0 and on ALC it 6.0. So now I have no Idea ware I should be. The nice thing about alc is if have to much you dont lose lots of power like you do on gas.

I have thought about no FMIC for sleeper reasons. I may get a larger fuel cell and a different jet setup to run more ALC. I feel to run enough ALC to have no FMIC without turning the car into a full ALC car which is no good for a street car would be to get a stand alone with a 2nd set of inj and a seperate fuel system for it.

 

[T71-TALON]

They'll get a lot more out of that motor with intercoolers. Just water, dry ice, methanol, NO2 or whatever else won't work as well.... which is why intercoolers are used.

If it works on DSMs, it's being done.

If not, it ain't.

I'm not sure if alot of you know what you are talking about here and are to quick to say that no something will not work. You can use use methonal/alcohol or NO2 in replace of an intercooler. It all depends on what you intensions are with your vehicle. On a stock apllication vehicle I would say that yes it would be better to use just an intercooler. Alcohol/Methanol have will give you cooler air intake temps and lower the chance of detonation as well. There are plenty of people out there that have been using this method for years.There are plaenty of good kits out there.I use this one www.alkycontrol.com