6 bolt stock tear down with pics ...what do you guys think?

[dj1263]

Hey fellas...

I posted on an earlier thread and wanted to update once I got the head off.
90 tsi awd with 240, 000 kms (140k miles) all stock but I bought it with a pretty bad oil leak by the p/s pump/timing belt area with some traces of coolant. Coolant was clean...no traces of oil. Slight blue smoke after hot start up but fine thereafter and none during boost.

Compression tested at 150 on all 3 except cyl #2 .....I know I did not do leak down.

Can you tell me how this head gasket looks? Some of the head bolt holes were filled with oil - is that normal?

Also I see some valves slightly open from carbon.. im thinking this can throw off compression readings (sorry im an rx7 guy and new to piston engines ) They are a little open on cyl 2 & 3.

I noticed minor scoring on cylinder walls but I cant grab the scratches with my nail so is that okay?

Sorry...typing this from my phone in the garage so throwing these out as I think of them..

My plan is to make a daily driver until next year drop in something nice

 

[GST with PSI]

Can you tell me how this headgasket looks?

What head gasket?

 

[dj1263]

GST with PSI - my phone wouldn't load the photos so I'm doing it now with the ol' laptop

Oil leak area & head gasket (sorry I hope it comes out - as a new member I have a limit as to what I can post)

 

[92AWDHX40]

To unclear of pics of cylinder walls post more clearer ones please.

 

[GST with PSI]

DJ, the pics are really too small to really see/tell anything. It does look like you have some carbon build up on the valves. It's not a huge issue, but if left unattended, the carbon can cause hot spots in the cylinder. Here's a pic of some pistons in a short block I disassembled after about 160k. This is very similar to what you are seeing built up on your valves.

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It looks bad, but cleans up pretty easy.

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Is there any way you can take some higher resolution photos and upload them? It's hard to help out without being able to see what's going on. Pay close attention to the block and gasket area around cylinder #2, since that's where you had low compression. Make sure you get some shots of that area, and upload them.


You are looking for any sign of a displaced gasket, or leak. Here's an example of how the gasket can displace:

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That's a pretty severe case, but you get the idea. Post up some better pictures so we can help you out.

 

[dj1263]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback - prob is they only allow you so much upload Kilobytes while your on probation, so I had to resize them to be smaller.

GST with PSI - here is the #2 cylinder in question - the scoring on the right wall you cannot fell/grab with your finger nail.

My head gasket definitely doesn't look that severe but what are the cues for a oil/coolant leak? There is def carbon like you mentioned.

At this point I'm not 100% sure where the oil leak was coming from - but the whole front of the block was caked in sludge so not sure what else it can be. I am doing all new gaskets (OEM) as well.

Lastly, when I take out the cams, do I have to mark the placement of them somehow? Once I send it out to get cleaned & rebuilt, how will I know how to place the cams as to not interfere with TDC on the block?

 

[GST with PSI]

DJ, from what I can see, the cylinder looks good. Some of the cross hatching is even still visible. That being said, you could still have leakage past the piston rings which isn't going to be visible, and aside from pulling the piston out and doing some measuring there's no way to tell at this stage of tear down. You mentioned you will be sending the block out, what are your plans?

As long as your cams are stock, they are technically interchangeable, and can be installed in any order. I personally like to note which cam is the intake and which is the exhaust, and put them back in the head just like they were removed. That way, if either cam has worn to the cam journals in any particular way it will "match" its journals when reinstalled.

When you put the cams back in the head and torque the cam caps, without a timing belt on, the valves will be in a relaxed state for the most part. When you start moving the cams to line up timing marks (after the head is installed on the block), make sure none of the pistons are at TDC. Once you get your cam timing marks lined up, slowly rotate the crank by hand to line its timing marks up. It's pretty hard to bend a valve by hand, but it can be done. Just be cautious and take your time.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Yes the walls look good from the pics yes you should be able to assemble it from here with no problems.

 

[dj1263]

GST with PSI...thanks for the note...I will sending out the head not the block.

I was thinking of putting some oil in all cylinders and recheck later to see if #2 lost more than the others but can I rotate the crank at this point so the pistons are all even? Im certain I would mess up any timing settings.....

I was considering just putting in new pistons & rings if everything looks good with the block.

As far as the head gssket what are the signs of a oil and or coolant leak? Im taking out the water pump today and going to get a better look at that area so maybe its nof the head...

Iugrad92turbo - thanks mate!

 

[92AWDHX40]

Over heating if you have a bad head gasket, change water pump, and all pulleys oem, and a new tensioner i just replaced all that stuff recently.

 

[GST with PSI]

GST with PSI...thanks for the note...I will sending out the head not the block.

I was thinking of putting some oil in all cylinders and recheck later to see if #2 lost more than the others but can I rotate the crank at this point so the pistons are all even? Im certain I would mess up any timing settings.....

That test won't really tell you anything. At this point, the only way to tell if the piston rings are worn is to further disassemble the block, remove the pistons, and measure everything.

Without the head installed, you won't be able to perform a cylinder leakdown test, which would have told you if the piston rings were leaking/worn.

You can rotate the crank to your heart's desire. You will have to re-time the engine when you reinstall the head anyways, so worrying about timing marks at this point is moot.

GAs far as the head gssket what are the signs of a oil and or coolant leak? Im taking out the water pump today and going to get a better look at that area so maybe its nof the head...

It's hard to tell you what exactly to look for. All I can really say is look for any abnormalities. I posted some pictures of examples. It would be easier if you could post up some better pics, and the members who have experienced issues like these can help you look for those "signs" of an oil or coolant leak.

Take some better pictures of the head gasket and the deck surface of the block and post them up. Don't upload them here on this site. Use a third party site (like Picasa), and link the URL back here so you aren't being crippled by newbie upload restrictions (whatever those are).

Over heating if you have a bad head gasket, change water pump, and all pulleys oem, and a new tensioner i just replaced all that stuff recently.

W@t?

 

[BogusSVO]

GST, you are a tad off base on the stock cams, the intake cam has a slot in the back of it the CAS mates to. The exhaust cam dose not have that slot.


Now the oil test could give him an indicator if the rings are bad off, if the #2 cylinder leaked more oil past the rings than #1,3,4 It is by no means the most accurate way to tell, but can give a hint if the pistons need to come out.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Once you figure it out it wont be hard to put it all together again. You pull the head so once your ready to install it make sure you replace things in question timing components.

 

[hocka09]

I recently pulled the head on my tsi that was leaking oil down the front side of the block, turned out, looking at the exhaust side, the valve stem seals were leaking a good amount of oil and the turbo was on the way out. Those two combined or even just very worn valve stem seals can result in that sort of "sludge" forming on the block. Just my .02

Also, if the oil and coolant looked clean, the coolant near the p/s area could just be the water pipe o-ring leaking from the water pump or something simple like that. Nothing a new w/p wouldn't solve.

 

[GST with PSI]

GST, you are a tad off base on the stock cams, the intake cam has a slot in the back of it the CAS mates to. The exhaust cam dose not have that slot.


Now the oil test could give him an indicator if the rings are bad off, if the #2 cylinder leaked more oil past the rings than #1,3,4 It is by no means the most accurate way to tell, but can give a hint if the pistons need to come out.

Right. I was thinking of the cam profiles being the same, but you are definitely right. I suppose if you had 2 stock exhaust cams, then it wouldn't matter.

 

[dj1263]

GST with PSI - here is a close up the HG - cyl 3 & 4 and 1 & 2.

So I'm at the point where the head gasket & block are in good order - but I bought a new OEM HG (not multilayer) so I;m ok there.

The timing belt & balance belt looks to be recent - but no sticker for replacement in the bay anywhere. The lady before me had service records up until 2010 since 1989 - I am the 3rd owner (the second owner only had it for 6 months) so I can tell she took care of it (her owners manual has sticky notes and highlighted text in it everywhere).

I've narrowed my leaks down to a few things...

Valve stem seals - I've been researching and I always found oil under the spark plug cover and I only had smoke at warm start up. I found the spark plugs always in oil too.

Residual oil leftover - the front of the block was caked in oil but NOT wet. And it was above the HG so it must of been a valve cover for sometime (there was a new aftermarket on when I got the car). The only "wet" part was coming from the timing cover/p/s pump area.

Front cover leaking - once I removed the alternator I could see it so everything has to come off. I have about $800 in OEM stuff so far (pump was $241 alone). Don't say stealership because I've been int he biz 16 years my friends and if you want it right and want to deal face to face with someone you pay for - integrity. Just my philosophy
Plus I'm originally from the sates(PA and then CT) everything up here is more $$$ too.

I will also be replacing the OEM oil pump as well as it looked in bad shape when I removed it.

Hocka09 - I agree - I'm cleaning up that pipe and with the new pump I hope my problems are solved.

Right now I'm trying to figured out how to get the crank sprocket off (harmonic pulley is already off).
From what Ive read I'm soaking it overnight with penetrating oil.

 

[GST with PSI]

HG looks OK to me. The fire rings are in good shape, not distorted. From the pictures of the block you posted, it looks like they were sealing fine there as well. Looks like a normal, used HG. Can't really say where you are loosing compression on cylinder 2, but it doesn't appear that a faulty head gasket is to blame.

 

[BogusSVO]

Post a close up pic of the head surface, if that was improperly done, the HG would not be to blame, but the surface on the head.

I will agree, I can not see a fail point in the HG either.

 

[bryanwheat]

I have a method I use to test for cylinder leakage without the head. I use a vacuum pump with a plate that fits over the cylinder. It has a nice gauge on it so you can count with a stopwatches and estimate the leakage precisely. I use the same method for testing valves, except with a different plate. You could do the same with positive pressure if you want, but you would need to clamp the plate to the block, or bolt it. It is just a flat piece of steel with a nipple threaded into it and a rubber seal glued to the other side.

 

[serviceguy]

I am no expert but those two straight lines of fluid droplets (oil ?) perfectly aligned that show on the left side of the picture are left by the piston moving downward? Could that be a sign of a problem with the rings?

 

[dj1263]

I am no expert but those two straight lines of fluid droplets (oil ?) perfectly aligned that show on the left side of the picture are left by the piston moving downward? Could that be a sign of a problem with the rings?

thanks fellas...
GST with PSI - I though so to, thanks for following up

BogusSVO - thanks, I will take some close up shots of the head

serviceguy - no those were residual coolant drops when I pulled the head off

What is the best way to clean the block at this stage? How about the piston tops? Oven cleaner??
You guys are all awesome so far and I'm looking at this point just to get it right and build confidence that when the time comes for some power adders I can do mostly everything myself in the future.

I will be sending the head out shortly, is there anything I should mention? I will be bringing them some new valve stem seals...will they tell me if the springs,rockers and retainers are worn? I'm guessing I should be replacing all due to the mileage anyways yes?

Lastly, should I bring them the intake manifold to clean? Or is that just as simple as throwing in a parts washer...

 

[BogusSVO]

Most of the info for checking the head, and how to clean the block gasket surface can be found in the link.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/450429-bogussvo-how-links-other-info.html

 

[dj1263]

Most of the info for checking the head, and how to clean the block gasket surface can be found in the link.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/450429-bogussvo-how-links-other-info.html

wow - simply awesome to read, your a walking encylopedia

New Pics..
I rotated the crank to look at cylinders 1 & 4 (previous was #2 as that was the one with lower compression).

I see significantly more scoring but I also still see cross hatching. The vertical scoring I can't grab with my finger nail so are these walls still okay?

BogusSVO - here are the close ups of the head surface - thanks!

 

[BogusSVO]

You need to get a mic in there and check to see if the cylinders are barreled.

I was asking for pics of the surfaced on the head.

 

[dj1263]

You need to get a mic in there and check to see if the cylinders are barreled.

I was asking for pics of the surfaced on the head.

Thanks man...the first 2 pics are of the head surface...am I missing something?