5 and a half hours to do an intake manifold gasket???

[bmob01]

Hey, I just got my car back from the shop (couldn't figure out what was wrong with it) and they replaced the intake mani gasket and throttle body gasket. Now before I brought it in, I sprayed starter fluid around the gasket and it didn't affect my idle at all. With that aside, they want $514.41 for their work WTF. They said it took 5 and a half hours to do... (and I gave them a brand new intake mani to put on instead of the old one so they didn't have to remove the old gasket from the old one). This sorta sounds crazy to take that long. I understand the fuel rail needs to come out but 5.5 hours for a professional shop where they know what there doing? Any ideas if this is accurate before I talk to the shop?


UPDATE!! THOSE THIEVING MOTHER !@#$ERS!!!!!!!

So the exact time was 5.5 hours, and my bill was $574. OK I'm a little upset, but I can live with it. I get my keys, get into my car and drive off. Just as I made it 1/4 a mile it bogged down, backfired, and was exactly the same as before! I had a feeling they were complete idiots! I told them exactly what was up, and how it ran perfect b4 I took the CAI off. I told them it wouldn't run at first, but once I moved some vacuum lines around it ran. NO THESE IDIOTS WASTED MY TIME AND MONEY!!! Then I asked them what they were going to to. They said they would look further and give me an estimate. An ESTIMATE?!?! YOU JUST PROCLAIMED MY CAR FIXED AND YOUR GOING TO CHARGE ME MORE MONEY?!?! I was lividly screaming when there was a room full of customers (had to be more than 8, and one left when I was yelling ). After I calmed down, I remembered some things I learned in business law. I smiled and left, went to the local court and got small claims papers. Now filing a suit.

 

[falcon8r]

I just looked up the N/A dohc book rate and it is 3.0 hrs. +.3 for new manifold. The turbo is flat 3.3. This is Nichols-Chilton book. That is the facts on how I see it. Tres...

 

[MrBoxx]

Here's another take on the situation: You brought the shop your part. At my shop, the technician's pay is commission-based, based on the total of the estimate, including parts. So, let's say a brake job calls for $100 in labor and $100 in parts. If my tech gets paid 25% of that, that means that he gets paid $50 for the job, the rest going to cover cost of parts, shop supplies, and profit.

Now, due to the economics of the country right about now, the trend we've been seeing is people asking my manager if he'll install parts that the customer buys. Let's assume the same brake job here, but minus the parts. That's literally half of the technician's paycheck gone, just because the customer wanted to use his own part. To make up for the profit on the part, sometimes my manager will increase the labor rate a fraction to recoup some of loss. The alternative to this is for my boss to decline the customer's work, and lose out on all of the sale. In this economy, you can't do that.

So maybe, because you brought your own part, the shop increased the labor time to make up for the loss of the parts it would have sold you anyway, or maybe it really did take 5 hours and they just charge flat rate.

 

[FUNWHEELDRIVE]

first time i did my intake gasket on my turbo car, took about 3.5 hours. that was me being 16 years old, i had next to no mechanical experience. that was the bigest job i had done before, i also changed my injectors. this was with no instructions, or guidlines, just kind of guessing on waht to do next and basic common sense and just undoeing a bunch of bolts. i was 16 with no experience and did it in 3.5 hours along with my injectors (which only takes 2 mins extra ) but still.

a shop should do it alot faster than me when i was 16....

 

[white92talontsi]

It all depends on what the shop uses as a "book"
They also usually add in some diagnostic time as well for trying to find the problem.

Also you stated that you could not find the leak when you sprayed carb cleaner on the intake. Sometimes you cant. Sometimes you actually have to use a scan tool and watch the o2 readings and the fuel trim readings while you spray the carb cleaner to actually be able to tell the intake is leaking.

It doesnt matter if it takes them 10 minutes or 10 hours. Whatever the book says is what they go by, It's how they make money.

Just be lucky you didnt go in for a intake gasket and when you came to pick your car up you had a 3k bill because someone said the motor was tired.

Point is. It didnt take them 5.5 hours. You can bank on that. But you paid for what the book called for and that's business. Next time do it yourself.

 

[bmob01]

UPDATE!! THOSE THIEVING MOTHER !@#$ERS!!!!!!!

So the exact time was 5.5 hours, and my bill was $574. OK I'm a little upset, but I can live with it. I get my keys, get into my car and drive off. Just as I made it 1/4 a mile it bogged down, backfired, and was exactly the same as before! I had a feeling they were complete idiots! I told them exactly what was up, and how it ran perfect b4 I took the CAI off. I told them it wouldn't run at first, but once I moved some vacuum lines around it ran. NO THESE IDIOTS WASTED MY TIME AND MONEY!!! Then I asked them what they were going to to. They said they would look further and give me an estimate. An ESTIMATE?!?! YOU JUST PROCLAIMED MY CAR FIXED AND YOUR GOING TO CHARGE ME MORE MONEY?!?! I was lividly screaming when there was a room full of customers (had to be more than 8, and one left when I was yelling ). After I calmed down, I remembered some things I learned in business law. I smiled and left, went to the local court and got small claims papers. Now filing a suit.

 

[BlackMount]

UPDATE!! THOSE THIEVING MOTHER !@#$ERS!!!!!!!

So the exact time was 5.5 hours, and my bill was $574. OK I'm a little upset, but I can live with it. I get my keys, get into my car and drive off. Just as I made it 1/4 a mile it bogged down, backfired, and was exactly the same as before! I had a feeling they were complete idiots! I told them exactly what was up, and how it ran perfect b4 I took the CAI off. I told them it wouldn't run at first, but once I moved some vacuum lines around it ran. NO THESE IDIOTS WASTED MY TIME AND MONEY!!! Then I asked them what they were going to to. They said they would look further and give me an estimate. An ESTIMATE?!?! YOU JUST PROCLAIMED MY CAR FIXED AND YOUR GOING TO CHARGE ME MORE MONEY?!?! I was lividly screaming when there was a room full of customers (had to be more than 8, and one left when I was yelling ). After I calmed down, I remembered some things I learned in business law. I smiled and left, went to the local court and got small claims papers. Now filing a suit.

+1 on filing a law suit, hope that goes over well. My mother had taken in her Honda Accord to get the oil changed, and tires rotated at this what seemed to be a credible tire\lube shop, and when she got the car back, 2 lug nuts were missing, and 2 of those lugs were also stripped (they wanted to charge her 50$ for new lugs + nuts she told them she couldn't afford it, she went on her way home hopped on the interstate, and the car started shaking Really bad. she got out trying to figure out whats up, and she decided to check to make sure the lug nuts were tight, so she pulled out the old rusty 4-way i supplied her with and sure enough, 3\4 lugs were loose on 2\4 wheels. so when she told me about this, I hualled ass down to that shop, guns a blazing yelling like hell at them, and eventually after some negotiation and threats of a law suit, they balanced the tires, replaced the lugs, got new lug nuts, and double checked that the lugs were nice and tight. On top of that they refunded her on everything they charged her that day, and gave her a coupon for 50% off the next lube job.... yeah we ended up ripping that coupon up, I specifically told them we would never do business with them ever again.


Friendly advice. get A Chilton\Haynes repair manual, they have good diagnosis sections and cost 15-30$. so that way you can get an idea of whats wrong and even how to fix it before taking it to a low balling half ass-ing shop.

 

[bmob01]

I have the Haynes repair manual. Believe me, I spent the better part of 2 days trying to figure out what the problem is. I moved some vacuum lines around and at first it wouldn't start, then when I re-arranged what they were going to it started and idled a little high (2100rpm), but when you let off the gas (in neutral or clutch in) it would stay or go to 3k rpm and every so slowly decrease until it slowly idled out.

 

[BlackMount]

sounds like the idle dead speed screw (AKA throttle stop basically) was too high.

can you give Me\Us in detail what exactly your problem was? I know you said it had some trouble starting, and it Idle'd high, was there a CEL at all?


otherwise just a vacuum leak. Majority of my Vacuum Lines are looped and or blocked off so I don't have that problem with the exception of the vacuum lines for the WGA, MBC, and BOV. I do believe there Is a write up called "Stage 0 Mods" or something similar that details vacuum line eliminatio

 

[BLINKY619]

UPDATE!! THOSE THIEVING MOTHER !@#$ERS!!!!!!!

So the exact time was 5.5 hours, and my bill was $574. OK I'm a little upset, but I can live with it. I get my keys, get into my car and drive off. Just as I made it 1/4 a mile it bogged down, backfired, and was exactly the same as before! I had a feeling they were complete idiots! I told them exactly what was up, and how it ran perfect b4 I took the CAI off. I told them it wouldn't run at first, but once I moved some vacuum lines around it ran. NO THESE IDIOTS WASTED MY TIME AND MONEY!!! Then I asked them what they were going to to. They said they would look further and give me an estimate. An ESTIMATE?!?! YOU JUST PROCLAIMED MY CAR FIXED AND YOUR GOING TO CHARGE ME MORE MONEY?!?! I was lividly screaming when there was a room full of customers (had to be more than 8, and one left when I was yelling ). After I calmed down, I remembered some things I learned in business law. I smiled and left, went to the local court and got small claims papers. Now filing a suit.

dude i feel your pain tell me about it once i had a 1990 acura integra and it only needed a exhaust maifold gasket so i took it to a shop cause i didnt have time, once i get there they give me a estimate of 70 bucks i was like for sure, so i leave the car there for 2 hours and when i came back to pick it up my bill was of 465 plus tax i was like what did you replace the head or what, and then they tell me, "OH WE ENCOUNTERED A COUPLE OF PROBLEMS WILE PUTTING YOUR GASKET" I was like what problems, they said "IN ORDER TO CHANGE YOUR EXHAUST MANIFOLD GASKET WE NEEDED TO TAKE YOU HEAD OFF AND PUT A NEW HEAD GASKET AND INTAKE MANIFOLD GASKET" I WAS LIKE OHH HELL NO YOU DIDNT....! so i didnt want to make a big deal out of it so i paid the guy and drove home, and like half way to my house the car starts to bogg down so i was like F##K MAN i drove it home like that. as soon as i got there i poped my hood open and saw oil everywhere so i cleaned it with engine degreaser and turned the car on to see were the oil was coming from....! sure enough it was coming out of my head gasket i was like WTF.... i took my valve cover off and noticed that they didnt put a valve cover gasket on it just some silicone i was getting more frustrated by the second i took a look on my timing belt and sure enough again my timing was off so after that i took my head off and what did i do??? inoticed that they used my old head gasket and put it back on thinking that i would find out they also used silicone on my intake manifold and no gasket TRUST ME IM NEVER TAKING IT TO A SHOP AGAIN ID RATHER DO IT MYSELF NO MATTER WHAT... THAT WAS THE WORST DAY EVER

 

[jrohner]

If they were that dumb and slow that it took that long, that's their fault not yours IMO. I think you paid them to stand around your car and drink beer 1/2 the time.

 

[nytescion]

Hey, I just got my car back from the shop (couldn't figure out what was wrong with it) and they replaced the intake mani gasket and throttle body gasket. Now before I brought it in, I sprayed starter fluid around the gasket and it didn't affect my idle at all. With that aside, they want $514.41 for their work WTF. They said it took 5 and a half hours to do... (and I gave them a brand new intake mani to put on instead of the old one so they didn't have to remove the old gasket from the old one). This sorta sounds crazy to take that long. I understand the fuel rail needs to come out but 5.5 hours for a professional shop where they know what there doing? Any ideas if this is accurate before I talk to the shop?

I don't understand what you're saying. You gave them a new intake manifold to put on instead of the old one? why would it matter if they used the old manifold or not. Did they call you and tell you what the problem was and how much it would cost to fix it prior to fixing the "problem". if the car was running fine before the CAI was removed then wouldn't that mean that whatever is wrong it has to be before the throttle body? Am i missing something?

 

[rvapstu]

I ordered some parts for my car thinking that would save me money if I took it to the shop. So basically they can increase the labor rate to compensate for me wanting to use my own parts? Ouch! BTW. I don't have tools of my own (yet) and my apt complex has this no car work rule which sucks.

 

[MrBoxx]

I ordered some parts for my car thinking that would save me money if I took it to the shop. So basically they can increase the labor rate to compensate for me wanting to use my own parts? Ouch! BTW. I don't have tools of my own (yet) and my apt complex has this no car work rule which sucks.

See below:

the technician's pay is commission-based, based on the total of the estimate, including parts.

Using your parts takes money away from the technicians you're asking to do the work. They might have 2 car payments, a house payment, student loans, and $100k+ in tools to pay for. If you want to use your parts to save the money, then pitch in a few extra bucks for them offering the courtesy of installing them. A lot of shops won't even offer to install customer parts, especially non-OEM (read: performance/upgrade) parts. The alternative is to do it yourself and save the money on the labor too.

 

[bmob01]

ok, to answer as m any questions as I can this is everything:

I had the CAI off and battery off while I was redoing a lot of the wiring in the engine bay (just replacing corroded wires and fixing the rigs the previous owner did on the head lights). On accident, I pulled a vacuum line off and hooked it up wrong. When I put everything back on It would start and instantly die unless I have it gas, but when I did it sounded super lean. So I switched some vacuum lines around and it ran, but idled at 2k rpm and when I would push the clutch in it would idle up to 3k and ever so slowly decrease in rpm until I put it back into gear. Eventually my car began to backfire as I gave it gas and it seemed like it didn't want to go past 1k rpm in gear without backfiring/jumping forward and stopping. My friend towed it to my garage (just a single car bay one with tools) and I spent 2 days trying to figure it out. I sorta just glanced at stuff because I have been very busy with work lately, so I figured I wouldn't waste the time working on it this time and just take it to a reputable shop. Now this place I took it to is open 24 hours 7 days a week, that's how busy they are (and I live in a small town). I told them everything that I just said above and the guy at the counter said "Oh yeah we can take care of that for ya in a heartbeat!". So I left my baby there. 4 days later I get a call saying they have the intake manifold and throttle body off and are putting new gaskets on... I said, "wow Ok well thanks for letting me know before hand, anyways I have a high performance intake manifold if you want to use that, better now then in a month when I would have to put a new gasket on anyways". So they took the HP one (they would have used the old one anyways) and got it all back in and everything and the guy told me if was fixed! I was excited until I saw the bill. I figured it would be $375-425 but $574 was a bit much. I thought Oh well I pay them because they know what they are doing 100% and they guarantee their work and fixed my problem. I leave the parking lot after paying and make it about 1/4 mile and she's ilding at 2k again and now when I let off the gas in neutral she goes up, then she idles down very slowly but idles out and dies. Brought the car back in a blaze of yelling and demanded my car to be fixed or my money back. They took the car back in and told me they would give me an estimate. I talked to the owner today, he apologized to me. I asked him why they didn't test drive it and why would they say its fixed if it really wasn't. He told me he would make sure it was taken care of, and gave me a loaner car until mine was fixed (95 camry with 290k miles on it ). Let's hope they actually figure out that throwing new things at problems doesn't always fix it.

Sorry for the book. Anyways there WAS a CEL, I pulled it and it said secondary air injection

 

[nytescion]

kinda sounds to me like you messed up something. Then once didn't want to take the time to figure it out you brought it to a shop. Then telling them to install an aftermarket manifold instead of the stock one would be mistake number 2. Doing this could compound the situation. Did you let the car idle and warm up to op-temp before taking off from the parking lot or verify that the idle problem seemed to be fixed before paying? If not then that would be another one on you.

I agree, they shouldn't have just started ripping stuff off without calling and letting you know "hey we think it's this" and getting prior approval to go ahead with said work. Expecially if you didn't sign any paperwork giving them permission to do so ahead of time. Then them not test driving the car after the work to make sure things are working is dumb on their part.

Most of my buddies and I are techs (they automotive and I mechanical engineering). We always check to make sure we can identify the problem that the customer has a compaint about. Then after performing the work we verify the problem no longer exists. Just saying it's a two way street. Anyway it's too late now and they need to fix the problem they were paid to fix.

 

[rvapstu]

MrBoxx:

Thanks for the update. I'll make sure and check with the shop to ensure that they will install my parts and I'll take into account the aforementioned commissioning and weigh that as well.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I didnt read all the responses but for christ sake why did you let a shop work on your car with out getting a written estimate first? Book time is 1.8 hours. I hold you half resposible for getting ripped off and the other half is that POS shop you took your car too. Go back and tell them you want a refund and that you are only going to pay for 1.8 hours of labor plus 3% of the total bill for shop supplies. If they refuse then go to your county or state office and find out if you have an automotive repair board or something and file a claim with them. And for crying out loud dont ever let this kind of thing happen again. Protect yourself.

BTW its a really good idea to not take your own parts to a shop unless A) you know them IE: have past experiences with them. B) they will dislike you for it, they make money on parts, you wouldnt take your own burger to chilis and ask them to cook it would you?

At my shop the labor rate is 90 per hour unless you bring your own part then its 135.

 

[bmob01]

no they were going to RE-USE the intake manifold, I only brought them a New manifold to put on instead. Other than that they got the gaskets. The gaskets were the only parts that I needed (which they got for me).

 

[dannyd97gst]

One thing you need to consider is diagnostic time, book time is meant to be a guide only so in a perfect world if nothing goes wrong then book time would be applicable after compensation for diag time. This of course goes out the window when a "repaired" problem/symptom still exists after you've trusted someone to fix an issue.
Had these technicians/mechanics been decent human beings maybe you could have reasoned with them and given them the opportunity to completely fix your concern before going as far as filing a law suit.
Also consider this, if it took you 2 days to not find the problem what's to say they didn't spend 10 hours looking for it also. I'm not trying to prove who's right or wrong but you can usually get much further with them by being reasonable.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

no they were going to RE-USE the intake manifold, I only brought them a New manifold to put on instead. Other than that they got the gaskets. The gaskets were the only parts that I needed (which they got for me).

Ok makes more sense. Sorry if my reply earlier reads with a lot of negativity, sde effect of me being an asshole!

One thing you need to consider is diagnostic time, book time is meant to be a guide only so in a perfect world if nothing goes wrong then book time would be applicable after compensation for diag time. This of course goes out the window when a "repaired" problem/symptom still exists after you've trusted someone to fix an issue.
Had these technicians/mechanics been decent human beings maybe you could have reasoned with them and given them the opportunity to completely fix your concern before going as far as filing a law suit.
Also consider this, if it took you 2 days to not find the problem what's to say they didn't spend 10 hours looking for it also. I'm not trying to prove who's right or wrong but you can usually get much further with them by being reasonable.

True but they should have smoke tested the intake and found it within an hour. The shop ripped him off plain and simple. He paid them to fix an issue and he still has said issue.

 

[MrBoxx]

Not all shops have a smoke machine. They are costly and not every tech is qualified to use one.

 

[BlackMount]

Not all shops have a smoke machine. They are costly and not every tech is qualified to use one.

put a smoke bomb in the throttle body like the kind you buy at a fireworks store the little quarter size ones, close it off, with duct tape or something, and just wait.

 

[dannyd97gst]

Ok makes more sense. Sorry if my reply earlier reads with a lot of negativity, sde effect of me being an asshole!



True but they should have smoke tested the intake and found it within an hour. The shop ripped him off plain and simple. He paid them to fix an issue and he still has said issue.

With out a doubt given the information we've been given op appears to have been ripped off. However pointing the finger at what should have been done can not prove or disprove that smoke testing for a vacuum leak would have netted a different result.
I simply intended to give the op some advice to get the problem resolved as I have been on both sides of the fence.

 

[pboglio]

If I could count the times I got ripped off at TAD motorsports you would laugh your ass off, or when a Mitsubishi dealership cracked my valve cover, did a swap with a garbage one, and then never told me a thing about it, then blamed me for cracking it myself and doing me a favor by replacing it. Or when my bodyshop forgot to refill the tranny fluid after an accident and cost me a $2000 transmission forcing my insurance rates up over $1600 a year and never admitting any fault. Yeah, my car never sees a shop anymore and its better off for it. Trust me, that $500 is cheap compared to what I've gone thru. Start spending money on tools now

 

[bmob01]

I have a TON of tools. Air tools + normal ones, and a good deal of specialized tools as well. It's just finding the problem was where I was having difficulty, which led to the shop solution :/