2.3L stroker... forge or just rebuild??

[Mangold]

The setup im looking at is a t3/t4 50 trim ported non-clipped running 20-24psi, with 720cc injectors, 180li extreme tech fuel pump, ported 1g head on 2g block

The motor currently has 147,000 miles and im trying to decide between a basic rebuild to save $, rebuild with mostly forged parts or go all out and do a 2.3l stroker from magnus (however u spell it)

How much wear would be on my stock crank, rods and pistons after that long -- im not sure if i should re-use those parts and save buck or replace and spend, if ne one has done a rebuild on this high mileage a motor i would appreciate some feedback on this

Im looking for solid low 12 runs (12.2 my goal)

thanks

 

[dsmturboawd]

stroker isnt needed for a 50 trim or 12's.

if youre interested, i suggest you do some research.

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
stroker isnt needed for a 50 trim or 12's.

if youre interested, i suggest you do some research.

ive done quite a bit o reasearch and ive rebuilt 4g63s before as well... just none with over 100k miles

what im looking for is someone with first hand experience with a motor with this many miles... specifically are the internal components ok if you simply clean them up (ex i was thinkin of havin the stock crack balanced and knife edged - but how long will it continue to do its job after such a life)

im also realize that for a large turbo the stroker isnt needed but is it more effcient -- enough so to warrant the cost

ill probably just have to pull the motor apart and look at the components, but i wanted some general feedback before i did so i wouldnt have too much down time

 

[dsmturboawd]

its impossible for someone to say if the internals are ok. you must take them out and inspect them and see if theyre in spec.

you should know this if you've researched and rebuild like you claim.

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
its impossible for someone to say if the internals are ok. you must take them out and inspect them and see if theyre in spec.

you should know this if you've researched and rebuild like you claim.

exactly i never asked for someone to magically tell me if my internalls are currently ok...

just lookin for someone who rebuilt a 4g63 with around 140-160k miles and give me a ball park as to what kinda shape the stuff was in...

if i get say 10 differnt oppionions/observations on the shape of your typical 4g63t after 150k miles or so then i should have a good idea of what i might be seeing when i get mine apart

if a moderator wants to pull this string its fine with me... im getting nothing but sarcastic responses, just looking for some oberservations from ppl who have done similar work

 

[dsmturboawd]

its impossible for anyone to tell you what youre going to get.

this is how i answer rediclous questions. take them as sarcasm or whatever.

 

[Kingdom]

Really hard to answer your question. Some are okay and some are not at that mileage, really depends on the treatment the motor got.

Honestly, with all the parts being much cheaper now. you can go full stroker for around 2g's if you do everything yourself and thats almost new everything. Water pump, oil pump, overhaul gasket etc.

play it safe and build the f!@#$r.

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by Kingdom
Really hard to answer your question. Some are okay and some are not at that mileage, really depends on the treatment the motor got.

Honestly, with all the parts being much cheaper now. you can go full stroker for around 2g's if you do everything yourself and thats almost new everything. Water pump, oil pump, overhaul gasket etc.

play it safe and build the f!@#$r.

thats what im thinkin... its just $ starts to pile up quick... im doin the t3/t4 1st gen built head and motor rebuild... i can go all out just have to budget more.... i think thats what im gonnna do since the car is running good, be patient save up a few more bucks and go all out

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
its impossible for anyone to tell you what youre going to get.

this is how i answer rediclous questions. take them as sarcasm or whatever.

once again man, i am not askin for an ANSWER to a question... i am asking for OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS from other DSM tuners who may have done soemthing similar and found a better way or found out sumithin i dont know (and believe me i know there is a lot i dont know)

when i get my motor apart ill know what i have, but until then im only planning for what im going to be doing exactly, and i just would like some input from you guys as to what you THINK i might run across and what you THINK i should do... if you have ne suggestions on motor rebuilds or stroker kits or ne thing thats the type of stuff im lookin for... not the an obvious statement like "we dont know what u have" i know that and so does everyone else...

but ill be more than happy to listen to your thoughts on the situation, if you have ne advice on a good motor build, turbo setup, and fuel deliver and basic tuing that worked well for you then id love to hear it

thanks

 

[Kingdom]

if your car is running and your planning on going stroker your gonna need another crank anyways.

So this is what I would do.

I would buy a bare block and take my time assembling it, this way if you do get in money trouble the car isnt going to be down. Good bare blocks arent expensive, actually used complete bottom ends come up in the used section for pretty cheap and you can try the local junk yard too.

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by Kingdom
if your car is running and your planning on going stroker your gonna need another crank anyways.

So this is what I would do.

I would buy a bare block and take my time assembling it, this way if you do get in money trouble the car isnt going to be down. Good bare blocks arent expensive, actually used complete bottom ends come up in the used section for pretty cheap and you can try the local junk yard too.

Thats a good idea, I was actually thinking of putting in a JDM motor and building this block that way (so I would have a backup motor... and a JDM one at that)

*Do you know ne good places where you can get a motor bored .40 over and sleved (i want cast iron sleeves) I know where my Honda friends get their stuff (usually Dart Blocks) But whats a good reliable place to get this type of work done on 4g63's?

-Thanks for the suggestion, its a good idea

 

[VBGSX]

Originally posted by Mangold

*Do you know ne good places where you can get a motor bored .40 over and sleved (i want cast iron sleeves) I know where my Honda friends get their stuff (usually Dart Blocks) But whats a good reliable place to get this type of work done on 4g63's?

Before people start flaming you, do some searching first.

Sleeving is for Hondas NOT DSMs

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by VBGSX
Before people start flaming you, do some searching first.

Sleeving is for Hondas NOT DSMs

I have a freind in SA who has a 1g with cast iron sleeves

 

[Rick@AP]

I'm sure you do since everyone of us have iron alloy blocks. Didn't you notice how much heavier the 4g63 is compared to the alum. block of the Hondas?

Also, boring a block .40 over for no good reason isn't very smart.

You should really do some serious searching. Check out www.vfaq.com then ask questions.

 

[Mangold]

Like I said I have a friend with a 1G DSM that had his sleeved and when he shattered a piston (running a 100 or shot shot of Zex nitrous) there was minor internall damage... he had cylender 3 i beleive re-sleeved for like $250... bought 1 new piston and all new rings... put it back together and he was back up and running.

Thats why I thought it might be a good idea to do because Im planning to run a healthy shot of nitrous as well (more like 75 - NOS wet)

But, his might just have been an N/A motor that he rebuilt and added the turbo (i dont know because i met him when the car was turbo)... that would make more since -- was 420a Chrystler motor in the 1g?

Here is a good article explaining my thoughts on building the block:
http://www.wideopenwest.com/~ksmith3289/faq/dsmstroker.html

 

[Rick@AP]

If he told you that and meant it, he is an idiot since guys running in the 9's on race motors don't sleeve the block. Since I've spoken to him before what I am guessing is that you were saying some really stupid things and he was humoring you. The guys at that shop probably fell out laughing at you once you hit the door. I'm not that cruel, so take heart of what I'm about to type.

The block has cast alloy iron walls. If it gets scared, then you bore the block enough to get rid of the scar. The reason for inserting sleeves is that alum. blocks and bores, flex under pressure, which can lead to engine damage, or to obtain a larger bore than possible with the stock block. It is not because of the ability to throw away the sleeves if the block gets damaged. Sleeving is a helluva lot of work, even when sleeved blocks become damaged they don't just put another sleeve in, they bore the thing to the next step.

If you are spending $4k on just a plain old built 2L or even 2.3L short block....just do some more searching around.

Listen, just stop while you are ahead and do the reading that I suggested. You are not helping yourself with the comments that you are making. Seriously, just spend a few hours searching this site, the VFAQ site and some of the other DSM sites before you post.

 

[Kingdom]

Originally posted by Mangold
yes thats whats nice about the 4g63 block... but! the sleeves make the block more reusable... for example if you through a rod and it scars the wall... if you have sleeves you can simply replace the sleeve and not the whole block

now I was told by a local DSM specialty shop that to have my block bored .40 and compeletly built is aroung $4k... they assured me that they have done several and that it turned out good... he (Mike the DSM specialist here) also told me that I was smart for lookin at gettin my block sleeved, he tells me that almost no one does it but if your serious about building up a car its a real good idea, but who knows he might just be an idiot too

Your just adding more expense when you dont really need to do it.

Do a search under stroker, engine rebuild etc. Trust me for your goals your gonna need much less money and stroker is overkill. but if you want something different then its up to u.

If your bore is good then no need to overbore. The stock block has made more than 800-900+hp which is one of the good things about dsms, more power with less spending.

to hit the 2.3 mark you need a .020 overbore with a 4g64 crank, but honestly if my stock bore is good then I would stay with it. you will be barely under 2.3 with the stock bore and this way you will give yourself more chances once the engine breaks down and it shouldnt if its built and tuned right.

this is how it goes.
Stock bore < .020 over < .030(custom bore) < .040 over < .050 (custom bore) < .060(custom bore + not recommended) then after this point it will be cheaper for you to get a used block then sleeving.

 

[leet]

I don't want to be rude here, but for your goal, you are looking to spend WAY too much money. Don't you have anything ELSE you'd like to put some money into?

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by leet
I don't want to be rude here, but for your goal, you are looking to spend WAY too much money. Don't you have anything ELSE you'd like to put some money into?

Well yes thats a costly motor build but... 12.2 is my immediate goal

I eventually want a consistent reliable 10 sec car...

you are all right tho, it would be a waist of my money right now, I appologize as well about the cast iron sleeves bit, I talked to Tim - another DSM specialist and he agreed it was a waist

Im gettin that I should just get a good set of components (Crower Crank, Eagle Rods and and weisco pistons) what is everyone's oppinion on those internals

thanks for they help

 

[nineD5_GS-T]

There are no 10 second reliable DSM's. 11's is a good goal and it could be reliable. Also, a 10 second slip will require race gas and such. I have what could be an 11 second car that I drive 100 miles each week to work and back plus messing around on the weekends. If you want to run 10's, it is going to cost you either way you slice it.

Do some searching seeing that you do not come across as a very DSM savvy person. (You own a 1999 TSI AWD??)

 

[Mangold]

In my experience no single car is necissarly "reliable" they all seem to break ... but I get what you are saying

*I have a couple of DSMs, my 99 GSX was totalled so I moved what I could of it over to my 95 Talon TSI AWD so I just called it a 99 Talon TSI AWD, since its like a conglomeration of both cars

 

[Rick@AP]

Originally posted by Mangold
*I have several DSMs-- my car is actually a 95 TSI AWD... I have moved all my 99 GSX stuff over to the Talon... so it looks just like a 99GSX (so i just called it a 99 TSI AWD)

**This is not a daily driver, I plan on running a Tech 3 standalone unit with race gas... and a healthy shot of nitrous eventually so yes 10s are what I would like to run... and when I mean reliably I mean if i go to the track on an adverage evening and my car is running good I should hit consistent 10s -- but thats a long long way off

***I dont mind spending money on this at all.... I've spent like 30k in tha past year on other car projects ( I have a 69, 70, and 71 mustang and a 90 VW Golf and I just sold off my N/A Talon that I built up the motor on and was running a 75 hp wet shot of NOS -- ie i have much more experience with the 420a motor) This is the first time Im looking to really build up a turbo motor for myself... I rebuilt (with stock components) the 99GSX before it was totaled with help from a friend in my car club -- And asking questions is a part of doing research -- I dont pretend to know everything, I know most DSM tuners on this site know more than me, thats why I ask -- I think there are too many ppl that think they know everything out there... trust me no one knows everything

so in short, have an open mind (ie cast iron sleeves have been done in the past, they may not be critical but it can be done... its stupid to say something CANT be done )

so the helpful suggestions I have picked up... 1) get a separate block and build my motor out of that... NE one else with SUGGESTIONS?

These stupid comments like "do your research" are ludicrous -- i am doing my research, thats what this is all about... I could be just another poser idiot, or i could know more than you, you dont really know now do you?... if you don't have something worthwhile to post, then please dont waist all of our time

thanks






***from DSM tuners -- post suggestions
When replying to a discussion:

"Use the Search" is not an acceptable response by itself. Just because a question has been answered before, doesn't give you the right to flame the person for asking it again. If you are not willing to at least post the exact URL to the thread (or page) where the answer can be found, and explain how the info can be found quickly next time, then just move on and say nothing at all. Teach newbies how to find info, don't flame them for not finding it. Links to the VFAQ homepage are also not recommended. Link to the article.

Don't give tech advice unless you have first-hand knowledge of the subject. Again, link to the answer and try not to guess the answer to a question. If you are not completely sure about your answer, be sure and state that in your reply. The goal is to not spread hearsay or bad information.

Do not add to flamewars - do not respond to flamebait posts. You can be banned for this.

I give up.

 

[Mangold]

Originally posted by Kingdom
Your just adding more expense when you dont really need to do it.

Do a search under stroker, engine rebuild etc. Trust me for your goals your gonna need much less money and stroker is overkill. but if you want something different then its up to u.

If your bore is good then no need to overbore. The stock block has made more than 800-900+hp which is one of the good things about dsms, more power with less spending.

to hit the 2.3 mark you need a .020 overbore with a 4g64 crank, but honestly if my stock bore is good then I would stay with it. you will be barely under 2.3 with the stock bore and this way you will give yourself more chances once the engine breaks down and it shouldnt if its built and tuned right.

this is how it goes.
Stock bore < .020 over < .030(custom bore) < .040 over < .050 (custom bore) < .060(custom bore + not recommended) then after this point it will be cheaper for you to get a used block then sleeving.

Sorry,
Im gettin frustrated way to easilly... thank you for the information, you are right here