190lph+550cc injectors.will tuning be needed??

[talon913]

ok so im getting a 190 lph fuel pump and maybe some 550 cc injectors.how much boost would i be able to run before tuning is realy needed to not lean out..and how much boost max can i run on my stock 450ccs with that fuel pump?

 

[kottyking]

Of course its gonna need tuning. Dude, your ecu if for 450's and smaller fuel pump. If you wanna know exact numbers of boost you can run nobody is gonna be able to tell you that. Your need to buy a data logger to tell you whats going on with everything. Your also gonna need a fuel controller of some type, afc would be cheapest and would tune 550's just fine.

 

[Mr PopUps]

ok so im getting a 190 lph fuel pump and maybe some 550 cc injectors.how much boost would i be able to run before tuning is realy needed to not lean out..and how much boost max can i run on my stock 450ccs with that fuel pump?

That depends on your base fuel pressure.

 

[talon913]

oh ok i thought you could just turn the boost up a little bit by just adding a 190... my question was how much more than stock boost can i turn it up to just with having a 190lph and a boost controller.i was thinking 16-17psi..but ppl tell me that a 14b is not efficient after 16psi.is this relatively true??

 

[mheidemanjr]

well i have heard that the 14b is good for 22psi but dont quote me on that im sure some one else will chime in!!! i know the tiny tim (t-25)is only good for 16psi at best

 

[talon913]

wow 22 thats pretty good..yea i just want atleast 16-18psi at most..i just want to turn it up to drop into 13s then put back to stock

 

[spaugh]

Some people say that you can get away with 510cc injectors by upgrading to a 2g mas. I personal would not do 550cc or 510cc with out at least an AFC. It does not matter how high you turn your boost you will still be pig rich at idle and at lower RPMs when there is little to no boost. Rich conditions can cause problems. If you want to run any lager injectors than stock you need something to control them, and the AFC or S-AFC is your cheapest way of doing so.

 

[talon913]

oh ok if thats the case im just goin to keep my stock ones for now and when i get something to tune with ill get the 550cc which my friend only wants 40 bucks for.can i still run 16-18psi on pump gas and my stock injectors and a 190lph and have no further problems??

 

[spaugh]

Every one on here will have a different option on that. Some will say go for it and some will say your stupid for trying it. I have done it with the only consequence being fuel cut. In the end it is your car and your choice. More than likely if it is something you really want to do you will do it regardless of what anyone on here says. I would recommend at least getting some sort of logger. I put together a palm logger set up for less than $25, but I work for a cash register company and had access to all the parts (free) to make my own cable. The software is free and I got a Palm off ebay for about $10 bucks shipped.

 

[jrohner]

can i still run 16-18psi on pump gas and my stock injectors and a 190lph and have no further problems??

No. You'll likely hit fuel cut by or before 16psi. You should log your car and know what's going on with it BEFORE turning up the boost. 1G's have pretty aggressive timing maps stock, so you really need to watch knock. The injectors run out quickly on the stock tune too because of how rich the fuel maps are.

 

[talon913]

so the evo 8 190 fuel pump will make no difference at all??fuel cut i thought thats what the pump i was putting in was going to solve...im gettin a logger pretty soon.but i was thinking since im pushing 450s and the evo pushes 510-550s i shouldnt have a problem with fuel cut around 15-16psi with a 190lph.

 

[jrohner]

Fuel cut has nothing to do with fuel supply. Fuel cut is based on airflow. If you put in larger injectors and/or fuel pump and do nothing to the tune, you'll hit fuel cut the same but run much richer. The stock tune is quite rich to begin with. The ECU doesn't automatically or magically know what size injectors you have, the injector size is set in the ECU.

 

[talon913]

oh ok thanks for clearing it up a little man.im a nooob to dsms just learning as i go.so an safc would help for what psi im trying to run??

 

[dan2288]

yes, the afc will allow you to fine tune the 550's so that your car runs right.

 

[talon913]

wow i been waiting for that answer all day ..i just asked an experienced dsmer and he told me that i realy dont need an safc or afc..i can put 550cc,190 fuel pump,and a 2g maf and be fine at 16psi...

 

[knochgoon24]

You will run more than 20% richer if all you do is add the injectors with no tuning. The fuel pump will make no difference in your tune unless the fuel pump couldn't supply enough fuel and going lean up top. You wern't with 450s. The pump can handle those.

An SAFC will allow you to compensate for the larger injectors by reducing the amount of air the engine thinks it's getting. Less air = less fuel injected.

Fuel cut is a protective measure programmed into the ECU. It cuts fuel at a level that the stock injectors can't support. Basically, it keeps you from going lean and melting stuff.

Fuel cut is based on the amount of air metered by the MAF. By lowering the amount of air the engine thinks it's getting (via the SAFC) you can push the fuel cut to a higher limit.

A 2g MAF gives about a 20% lower reading than a 1g MAF, so some people run a 2g MAF with 550cc injectors and call it a day. Really, you should still have something to tune with, as they both aren't exactly 20%.

The problem you'll have to watch out for is knock. As the air flow decreases, the ECU adds more timing. Since the 1g timing maps are already aggressive, this additional timing can make you knock. Not good. This is why you need some type of logging setup.

 

[talon913]

nice thanks man for the info im just learning more and more about the tuning but data logger is my next mod im getting the injectors for realy cheap so im buying the injectors and the fuel pump tommorow and a 2g mas..im just going to wait till i get a data logger to install it.

 

[Mr PopUps]

No. You'll likely hit fuel cut by or before 16psi. You should log your car and know what's going on with it BEFORE turning up the boost. 1G's have pretty aggressive timing maps stock, so you really need to watch knock. The injectors run out quickly on the stock tune too because of how rich the fuel maps are.

so the evo 8 190 fuel pump will make no difference at all??fuel cut i thought thats what the pump i was putting in was going to solve...im gettin a logger pretty soon.but i was thinking since im pushing 450s and the evo pushes 510-550s i shouldnt have a problem with fuel cut around 15-16psi with a 190lph.

Fuel cut has nothing to do with fuel supply. Fuel cut is based on airflow. If you put in larger injectors and/or fuel pump and do nothing to the tune, you'll hit fuel cut the same but run much richer. The stock tune is quite rich to begin with. The ECU doesn't automatically or magically know what size injectors you have, the injector size is set in the ECU.

First off, ive NEVER hit FC on a 1G, 'cept for that time the intake pipe wasnt secured...

You can run 18psi on the 14b with stock injectors and the 190 all day. As long as it doesnt throw your base pressure up too high. 43psi will make you run pig richer. I just threw out 43 cause i dont know what psi the EVO pump is. My RX-7 TT pump is 210lph@43, but i run a 50psi base anyways. If you pull the lower honeycomb, and make sure you remove the silencer behind the MAF itll help.

The reason over 16psi is not a good idea is the stock FP starts to fall off about then. Rewiring it will help you maintain 16psi safely. Rewiring it and using the 190 will be ok.

Now, on to your quest for 13's. Turning up the boost isnt the only blockage to that ET, FWD is more of an issue. Start at 16psi, learn to drive that, then get better at it. Then practice some more. Then raise your boost and learn to drive it at 18psi.

One thing the FWD guys did on the 1G's was use the intermediate shaft from an AWD and the left axle so you had equal length half shafts. That helps some with wheel hop.

 

[talon913]

thanks alot man now you realy cleared up my question...so im getting a 190 out of an evo tommorow and a 2g mas..could i just put these to on just for a lil bit and turn boost up to 16 and be ok only for like 2 pulls at the track to get use to it???alot of ppl say different i know.but can i run 16psi on stock 450ccs and a 190.plus the 2g maf??...my quest isnt so hard im running 14.2 all day at like 12psi.but i just want to break 13s safely.

 

[kottyking]

You keep asking the same question over and over. Every car is different. Get a data logger first and that will tell you what is going on with your car/ecu. Then make adjustments from there.

 

[snakeyes711]

I'm running 16 psi in stock injectors. I been doing that since the first of this year. Most Def. Get a logger so you can see whats going on nothing more then a blown engine to a blind man.

I'd make you a cord for a small price plus shipping. I still got some parts left over. Matter of fact I know where I can get a Palm IIIc. I could get it load MMCD 1.8, and send it, and a cord to you all you'd have to do is hook up the pins under the dash, and start logging.

 

[awdmonster1904]

every car is diffrent I would get a logger and safc and do research there is posts in how to tune your car on that set up you have

 

[talon913]

ok thanks from reading ive decided to get a safc+190lph and just tune from there..hopefully get a data logger to in my budget range

 

[talon913]

as far as data logging go will this one work for what i need it?

1g Data Logging Kit DSM Eclipse Talon 3000gt Datalogger:eBay Motors (item 200360752571 end time Aug-06-09 20:02:02 PDT)

 

[turboAWDfanatic]

If you don't have a palm or a laptop, go for the palm package. If you have a laptop, buy a logging cable (usually $10-$20 on eBay), and get FREE logging software like MMcD or tunenstein (or tunerstein, I can never remember). A DAMN good logger for $25 is Evoscan.

IMHO, spend money on some great supporting mods first. I know it's tempting to turn up the boost, but the satisfaction of doing it right and getting a lot of power safely is better than bumping it up little by little and praying your engine doesn't blow up. I'd recommend investing in the following:

- Logger (as stated above)
- Wideband O2 (zeitronix or other. With the Evoscan logger, you can log the wideband O2. Otherwise you have to log it separately through the wideband's included software or jerry rig your ECU to log it)
- 2g Maf
- Engine management. I recommend the Moates Ostrich. At $175 its WAY cheaper than a new AFC, and it has just about all the capabilities of DSMLink. The down side is that you have to do a lot of reading, as it is not as user friendly as DSMLink.

Once you can monitor your engines functions (logger) and have the ability to tune (AFC/Ostrich/DSMLink) you can start seeing a lot more power out of your car while knowing what the limits are.