Which brake kit is better? Wilwood or Baer

[asian312]

I really wouldn't waste your money on the Baer kit. I have no experience with it, but it is a 2 piston caliper just like stock. So you are basically paying for a larger rotor. The new Powerslot Plus rotors can be had for a lot less than a Baer kit....combined with OEM calipers, it seems to me that that would be a very similar setup.

You should have stopped at the part in bold because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah they are 2 piston, two huge ass pistons. Rotors are huge 13" and the pads are 50% larger than stock. The track kit is from mustang cobras and C4 vettes, so you do the math. Powerslots are cheaper for a reason: same calipers and same pad size (i have powerslots in rear).

So the rotors are bigger, caliper, and pads are bigger, but are you certain that they stop better?

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Everyone on this thread that actually has the kit says so. If you need more assurance than that you should stick with stock. Even powerslots were a big diff over stock.

 

[asian312]

I guess my next question is how many here who have the Baer setup have ever run a race pad like Porterfield R4-E?

I joined in because I was curious if there really was advantage to the Baer system. When I needed brakes for track days on my car I came up with a much different answer from some credited road racers and a certain sponsor on this board. To this day I've done 2 track weekends (8+ hours on track) with just Porterfield R4-E pads and some Motul 600 in the lines. I punish my brakes when trying to slow 3300 lbs from 130 mph and they have yet to give me a single sign of brake fade. Could I jump on the brakes harder? Yes, but that would mean locking my wheels.

Big brake setups use larger rotors to disappate more heat, but if you use a pad that is more aggressive and operates at a higher temp, then what's the point in buying a $800 big brake setup?

 

[twicks69]

Because they are lighter, reducing the weight of unsprung mass that your drivetrain has to rotate.

Take a set of Wilwood FSL's with 2-piece aluminum hat and scalloped rotor and a set of pads and brake lines and measure the weight difference between that and the stock setup.

You are removing SEVERAL pounds from each corner. More power to the wheels due to a lower percentage of drivetrain loss, creating a more efficient drivetrain.

I will definitely stick with my Wilwoods ANYDAY over stock to stop my 600+AWHP car. They brake hard, and they are reliable.

If you want to stick with your pads on stock setup, then that is your choice.

I would like to see how fast you brake from 150 to zero at the track with stock brakes and pads.

 

[asian312]

Well I guess that's the difference in my car. I make a solid 220HP. You got me on weight, but I'm not quite convince it's enough to make that big of a difference for my purposes. There's still plently of driver mods that I need to work on before I need to worry about unsprung weight.

My point wasn't to unwarrent big brake setups. I know they have a purpose and when that time comes I already know which setup I'm going with. My goal was to see if anyone has any points to compare from. Specifically regarding the Baer setup.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

I drive fast... I can tell you that with these brakes I can slow down very well form 150 to 80, make another pull and get back on them hard again and not have any problems. The stock brakes just did not do that for me. On a lower powered DSM they will probably be fine, but once you start making 500 awhp you get going so fast in a short amount of time you need to be able to slow and control the vehicle in a equally fast manner

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

The regular Baer track kit's one piece rotors are much heavier than stock. I don't mind this for my setup because my built auto has plenty of tq to spare and the forward momentum of the extra mass up front for a fwd is useful once I get moving. You can upgrade the rotors to two piece aluminum ones ones which I might do later.

And asian312, I could care less about autocross since I don't partake. I just care about stopping my car as quickly as possible and for that it's worth it. When a stock performance part goes out, I don't put stock garbage back in. I upgrade.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Those with Baer kits - how is the pedal feel? I read some reports that the pedal is more mushy due to the larger piston size/fluid requirement with a stock sized master cylinder. I too have used stock calipers with R4E pads and beat the hell out of them with no problems. The only thing I noticed was the dust boots had some cracks and looked like they almost melted but the brakes still work fine. Boiled my "track tested" caliper paint and turned it into a bubbly black mess. Asian312 - how do your dust boots look?

We need more reports with these brake setups out on a road course. Not autox, not street, not drag. Nothing tests a brake system harder. (long 10/10ths downhill canyon run maybe?, but that tests your courage and luck more than anything else...)

PS - a stock brake system, especially with some nice pads, will stop just as well as any upgraded brake. Your decleration rate is determined by road condition, tire width/compound/tread/condition, and proper threshhold braking (using 100% of the tire's grip for braking; no more, no less. The stock brakes with some nice pads have enough bite to engage the ABS (or lock the tires if your ABS is removed) from just about any speed. Just don't try to do it more than once.

 

[housegsx]

They must've have been bled incorrectly or had old mushy rubber lines. My pedal is rock hard. You don't have push in far like a stock system, just add pressure for more stopping power. The brakes stop very well. I will be testing them at some flat out track days this spring with porterfield r4-s pads.

 

[asian312]

Asian312 - how do your dust boots look?

Not too bad actually. No cracks or brittlness detected yet. Then again I think the tracks down here are fast and flowing or slow and technical which dont dish out quite severe a beating as some of the tracks out in Cali or say Road Atlanta.

The goal of this thread is to be informational and not so much to defend/justify what they prefer or use. While my car may not have 500+ HP, I can probably guarantee I see higher speeds and more frequent braking than most. HP does not play a direct role into this other than provding power to accelerate a car to 'xx' mph. Thus if someone is interested in a brake upgrade, why not entertain 'effective' solutions if they dont have to break the bank?

 

[daren_p]

Well I don't have compairson of Wilwood vs Baer or vs stock "big brake" setup but I can say my Wilwood setup vs the stock fwd or earlier small awd setups is a night & day difference in both stopping power & brake fade. I couldn't be happier with my setup & IMO was defently worth the cost

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I concur. And power output does make a difference in brake requirements. A 380whp car vs a 240 whp accelerate to speed far differently. Your inertia is going to be far greater with faster acceleration. When I gained a 100 whp from upgrading to a new setup my braking power became MUCH poorer. I upgraded all my brakes to suit my setup and now I have my stopping power back. Now explain to me why else would I suddenly lose a ton of braking power from switching to a more powerful setup? Nothing about the stock braking system was touched.

These new brakes work great, that's all the proof I need.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Before I bought the Baer kit I heard about that crap regarding the bigger pistons and stock master cylinder... and I decided it was crap. Baer did not start making brake kit yesterday you know, they are a company that had been doing this a long time. The kit is engineered to work with our cars. My brake system works very well. The pedal is rock hard. The Baer kit comes with upgraded lines and I have a AEM kit in the rear. Hawk HPS pads for the street. When I bought the car it had the 2G AWD calipers (from the factory) with powerslot rotors and EBC greenstuff pads. It braked like poopy. 100+ was not strong. You can not compare a big brake kit to a factory caliper + HP pads.
Everyone that rides in my car is amazed how well it brake from 150...

 

[asian312]

I concur. And power output does make a difference in brake requirements. A 380whp car vs a 240 whp accelerate to speed far differently. Your inertia is going to be far greater with faster acceleration. When I gained a 100 whp from upgrading to a new setup my braking power became MUCH poorer. I upgraded all my brakes to suit my setup and now I have my stopping power back. Now explain to me why else would I suddenly lose a ton of braking power from switching to a more powerful setup? Nothing about the stock braking system was touched.

These new brakes work great, that's all the proof I need.

Braking at 130+mph with 2000HP or with 75HP is the same. The difference is how fast you reach that speed. I just spent the weekend lapping the car around one of Texas's fastest tracks. On the front straight I'm braking from 120-130mph to 55mph, then accelerating back to 95mph and then back down to 40mph. That's 5 out of 15 turns and I'm at this for 25min at a time, 4 times a day.

This whole conversation came up with the comment Rice Over Wheat made to Mitchel63 regarding the abilities of a stock rotor and Porterfield setup. To each his own and I respect another's decision, but if someone is going to make as bold of a statement as, "You should have stopped at the part in bold because you obviously don't know what you're talking about." Then they better have experience with both.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Go read my post again. I said there is a big difference with a more powerful car vs a much less powerful one due to acceleration/inertia. When you accelerate faster you need better braking. It's not rocket science. i.e. Bringing mass to a stop at half throttle takes less energy than at full throttle.

Also go read the first post I wrote again since you incorrectly cited me out of context. The guy admits he has no experience with Baer brakes, then announces they aren't worth having.

You're 0-2. If you want to have crappy stock brakes, like you said to each his own. I had a clear before and after result, that's all I need to know. And do I care if you run a car around a track? Go win a race with your stock brakes and maybe I'll pay that some mind.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

asain, the point is if you car traps faster in the 1/8th than most peoples trap in the 1/4 you need bigger brakes. If you can get up to 90 in a block and I can hit 135 I may need better brakes than you, I will be slowing from a higher speed.
yes slowing from 130 in a 200 hp car or from 130 in a 600 hp car is the same, the difference is that the 600 hp car gets to 130 alot fast in alot less space there fore needs to stop alot faster in alot less space.

 

[asian312]

asain, the point is if you car traps faster in the 1/8th than most peoples trap in the 1/4 you need bigger brakes. If you can get up to 90 in a block and I can hit 135 I may need better brakes than you, I will be slowing from a higher speed.
yes slowing from 130 in a 200 hp car or from 130 in a 600 hp car is the same, the difference is that the 600 hp car gets to 130 alot fast in alot less space there fore needs to stop alot faster in alot less space.

Totally agree on that point. Physics is physics and bound by those laws I cant get to 130 in a 1/4 mile. But I can when I exit onto a front straight doing 80. How you get to 130 is irrelevant, what happens when you try and stop at 130 is. And I'm probably trying to stop in a smaller margin than what you would normally leave yourself on the street. All I wanted was to see if someone had any valid experience with a race pad compared to the Baer kit. Instead I get alot of friction because I'm comparing a stock setup against their x-y-z. I've said what I came to came say.

 

[donmagicjuan]

Let's try to prevent this discussion from turning into a pissing contest. If you have reason to disagree with something, state your case and keep it civil.

I upgraded to the Baer track system a while back because I grew tired of having the stock rotors turned on a weekly basis. Of course, I'm probably largely to blame for not warming them up properly before standing on them in freeway traffic, but whatever. The Baer rotors and pads have worked very well for me, and the pedal feel was significantly improved over stock with the addition of some SS lines. So far I've only noticed the onset of fade toward the end of the seasoning process, which involves 10 back-to-back maximum effort stops from 60 mph. During normal spirited driving and autocross sessions (no roadracing for me yet), they're never less than 100%.

I'm sorry, but the comment about less unsprung weight making it easier on the drivetrain is pretty much BS. Even if the larger rotors were lighter than stock (I'm pretty sure mine were a bit heavier-- maybe the Wilwoods?), polar moment of inertia for a disc goes something like 1/2*mr^2. So if you manage to save 2 lbs on a rotor but switch from a 5 to a 6.5 in. radius, you still wind up with a larger inertia. The place you will see the benefit from the lighter rotor is in the suspension. The shocks will have less energy to dissipate when handling the lighter mass.

On a side note, I also received the red centering rings with my kit roughly a year ago. I didn't realize they were the wrong size at the time, however, so I decided to will them onto the hub. Another case of stupidity breeds creativity, I suppose.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Don't feel bad, I machined mine to fit and put them on anyways. Needless to say the rotors weren't centered right on the hub and I got some nasty rub on the back as the rotors contacted a bolt. I actually had some damage before I corrected the situation with the right rings, good thing it was where the pads do not contact.

Also, anyone who gets the Baers...be aware that if after installation the rotor does not sit centered in the frame bracket you need to space the frame accordingly by using an additional washer on the mounting bolts, otherwise you will rub on turns once the car's weight settles on its suspension. Every car is a bit different, but this is more likely to be an issue if you are lowered. I know a person with the same kit and needed no modification. I needed washers.

 

[donmagicjuan]

Wow, that's unfortunate. I guess I was lucky that mine centered just fine despite having the wrong part.

 

[daren_p]

This issue with the Baer centering rings may also be because of which version of hub your running. Mitsu descided to change them abit and the newer version has a small step just before the wheel mounting surface. I found this out when I went to install my Wilwood kit & the disk fit flush on one side, while not on the other. Looks like my passenger side was replaced sometime before I bought the car. I ended up just machining my aluminum hat to fit on that side but when I talked to Todd he said Wilwood had actually just come across this very issue & was questioning him about. Last I heard a year and abit ago Wilwood was going to machine a step in their aluminum hats to fit either hub.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Rick at Baer said they measured their rings when I reported my problem and they discovered their entire batch of red rings were manufactured out of spec by .017". He said this was a wide margin of error. Since Baer makes these in house, a whole new batch had to be made. You can email him at [email protected] to verify this.

The bad batch of rings will NOT fit the baer rotors at all without major machining to increase the inner diameter. The correct rings slide in like a glove. The hub wasnt the issue, it was the fitment to the rotor.

 

[daren_p]

Rick at Baer said they measured their rings when I reported my problem and they discovered their entire batch of red rings were manufactured out of spec by .017". He said this was a wide margin of error. Since Baer makes these in house, a whole new batch had to be made. You can email him at [email protected] to verify this.

The bad batch of rings will NOT fit the baer rotors at all without major machining to increase the inner diameter. The correct rings slide in like a glove. The hub wasnt the issue, it was the fitment to the rotor.

Yes, you already stateted this earlier. I was just adding that there could also be another issue to look at when upgrading or having fitment issues .

 

[Weapon-X]

My kit came with the red rings as stated earlier. They fit the rotors perfect but I have not yet fit them to the hub of the car.

So if I follow correctly as long as the rings fit in the rotor, then all is good?

Or can there still be a fitment issue elsewhere?

And to help clear things up the kit that I have was purchased over a year ago. I have just had it sitting around cause I have had other more important projects taking up my time.

 

[CrazyNikko]

I just want to add that I have seen the Baer kit and I was impressed. Everything I received from the company was packaged for a rough ride. The calipers and rotors exceeded my expectation. The problem was that the outside vendor sold me a 2g kit. When I called back the kit was on backorder for a month. I couldnt wait a month since we basically cut out the stock system. That day I went to the Rotora big brake kit in front and i'll never go back to Baer even though the exceptional quality. You get what you pay for. MY preference is Willwood over Baer just my opinion because if you ever want to upgrade the rear you can go to Todd at TCE.