Titanium parts list!!! Time to rock.

[burldude]

I have been looking into a full titanium parts buildup for the 4g63 using the 2.0 liter displacement . I think it would be pretty cool if we could get together a parts list and vendor list along with price . So far I have found the connecting rods and valvle spring retainers
and will edit and add as I go . The price will be high no doubt . I want to build the complete super race motor using the stock 2.0 displacement .

Item Supplier Price Weight
Connecting rods Crower 420.00 each 410 grams!!!
Valve spring retainers crower ? 7grams!!
piston pins Precision Products 85.00 each ?
Crower titanium valves 90.15 each 1442.00 a set ?
crower billet crank 2200.00 weight ?
Valve springs ? ?
Rifle drilled cams Cost ?

I need more super components !!!! The best pistons !!! The best crank ? Stock knife edged Or do billet cranks exist ?. Now the best part is I dont have the money and am going to find somway to pay for it all !!! :laugh:

I want no expense spared and then I will have a total of parts and a price total to work with . This needs to be the total street strip take home the trophy kind of car . Iam talking about driving around 50 miles on pump gas and going to the track and wiping the Chevelles and Camaros out of the picture. I want to shock the Dsm world

 

[gixrman]

full titanium parts buildup for the 4g63 using the 2.0 liter displacement super race motor using the stock 2.0 displacement .
I need more super components !!!! !!! :laugh:

I want no expense spared and then I will have a total of parts and a price total to work with

You forgot TI exhuast. Everything else will have to be custom Fabricated. Carbon Fiber would be a better aternative for body parts and big items for weight savings.

oh yea Mr. Makie says Drugs are bad....... um ka

 

[terefic181]

I've got a bunch of extra titanium hip and knee replacemrnt parts.

Think you'll find a place for those?

 

[burldude]

I've got a bunch of extra titanium hip and knee replacemrnt parts.

Think you'll find a place for those?

If you do then pm me and we can work somthing out . I have a machine shop and titanium stock but have no idea how to coat the parts to prevent galling or gauling however you spell it . What would it cost ten grand to build up ? Help out and let me worry about the money

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

If you do then pm me and we can work somthing out . I have a machine shop and titanium stock but have no idea how to coat the parts to prevent galling or gauling however you spell it . What would it cost ten grand to build up ? Help out and let me worry about the money

Do you know anything about the expansion properties of different metals? Do you know ANYONE running "titanium valves?" No. Why you ask? Probably because it's either completly impractical, or it doesn't work. I would be willing to bet you're going to build this motor and slap some bolt-on turbo on it, and never get even close to it's potential. Go with what's tried and proven, the fastest are the fastest for a reason.

Also, what are these "super parts" you speak of? I don't think you're going to be doing much "shocking of the Dsm world" when you make a post on here asking where to get titanium windshield wipers and door handles.

Also, I will give you one pointer. You should look into a titanium intercooler and possibly drag racign springs. I bet those would help out a ton. By the way, the rods and valve train you listed above are NOT titanium. Crower does make a set of billet titanium rods, and they are $465 a piece

 

[yo2001]

Crower valve spring retainers are Ti last time I checked. That's what I got.

 

[terefic181]

From the net:

Stainless Steel Valves for Mistubishi/DSM
Crower is pleased to introduce a new line of premium quality stainless steel valves for the Mistubishi/DSM engine platform. Made from the highest grade stainless steel available on the market, this new Crower valve is a must for high horsepower, high boost and high rpm applications. The exclusive "Pro Flo" head design delivers a significant increase in cylinder head flow figures, while the tip area is hardened to RC50, including past the critical keeper groove area for added strength. Fully CNC machined and swirl polished to insure that you will get the best performance valve available on the market. Choose from standard, .5mm and 1mm oversize. Titanium valves also available.
A lil expensive but they make em.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

From the net:

Stainless Steel Valves for Mistubishi/DSM
Crower is pleased to introduce a new line of premium quality stainless steel valves for the Mistubishi/DSM engine platform. Made from the highest grade stainless steel available on the market, this new Crower valve is a must for high horsepower, high boost and high rpm applications. The exclusive "Pro Flo" head design delivers a significant increase in cylinder head flow figures, while the tip area is hardened to RC50, including past the critical keeper groove area for added strength. Fully CNC machined and swirl polished to insure that you will get the best performance valve available on the market. Choose from standard, .5mm and 1mm oversize. Titanium valves also available.
A lil expensive but they make em.

If you want to hold the power, copy someone's setup. Buschur, Shep, to name a few..

 

[burldude]

From the net:

Stainless Steel Valves for Mistubishi/DSM
Crower is pleased to introduce a new line of premium quality stainless steel valves for the Mistubishi/DSM engine platform. Made from the highest grade stainless steel available on the market, this new Crower valve is a must for high horsepower, high boost and high rpm applications. The exclusive "Pro Flo" head design delivers a significant increase in cylinder head flow figures, while the tip area is hardened to RC50, including past the critical keeper groove area for added strength. Fully CNC machined and swirl polished to insure that you will get the best performance valve available on the market. Choose from standard, .5mm and 1mm oversize. Titanium valves also available.
A lil expensive but they make em.

Thanks this is the kind of information we need They make just about every recipocating part for Gm 350's out of Titanium . The same may be applied for Dsm's with some exception.
Mirage2lturbo: This is a whole different level of build up

 

[terefic181]

Mirage2LTurbo,

I understand the idea of tried and proven. I also know that sometimes when people step out of the box new things come about. I'm sure John Shepherd and the Buschar team didn't follow everyone else along the way, and I'm pretty sure they don't tell all that they do to their cars. It's not my decision as to wether this thing gets off the ground. The gentleman asked for assistance and hopefully I gave him some.

 

[pneumo]

Ralphie from The Simpsons sez,"Titanium is made of magic!"

Buschur, Shep, Glazer, et.al. didn't get to where the are by asking juvenile questions like 'where can i get titanium everything?' If you want to push the limits you need to ask more specific questions like, If I want to use a Ti wristpin, do the rod and piston need to be changed in order to work properly? Brian Nutter from Wiseco wrote a good post telling why titanium piston pins didn't work, it's the wrong material for the application. Use that info, build on it, maybe it will lead to something better. (I'll see if I can find his post)

www.MatWeb.com is a good read for anyone truely interested in physical properties of various materials. BTW Ti retainers do more to lighten your wallet than to lighten the valvetrain.

 

[burldude]

Ralphie from The Simpsons sez,"Titanium is made of magic!"

Buschur, Shep, Glazer, et.al. didn't get to where the are by asking juvenile questions like 'where can i get titanium everything?' If you want to push the limits you need to ask more specific questions like, If I want to use a Ti wristpin, do the rod and piston need to be changed in order to work properly? Brian Nutter from Wiseco wrote a good post telling why titanium piston pins didn't work, it's the wrong material for the application. Use that info, build on it, maybe it will lead to something better. (I'll see if I can find his post)

www.MatWeb.com is a good read for anyone truely interested in physical properties of various materials. BTW Ti retainers do more to lighten your wallet than to lighten the valvetrain.

It would be helpful if you could find Brian Nutters post ?

Ti does have many good and bad properties . Any who has machined it knows the ins and outs. If you look into the new developments you can see that much of the worries of before are no more . With the new chemical bonded coatings that dont just adhere but integrate with the metal surface, wrist pin wear and gaulling are a thing of the past . Also since this is a single rod per journal the rods do not receive the thrust wear causing the premature wear associated with small block gm and big blocks . If you rub titanium together it will eventually start to adhere and stick causing bad things to happen . This is the reason for coating components . The coatings of the past tended to have less adhession than was needed . Which led to catostrophic failure . As for the valves the current coatings still do not hold to the heat well enough for my tastes on a daily driver . So you can cancel the coating there and go with a silicon bronze valve guide which is self lubricating . As far as titanium retainers and springs ,yes they do lighten your wallet . But not nearly as much as a new head job.

 

[burldude]

Here is the post by Brian Nutter with some needed info. The Ti pins will work !!! Just a little pricey,


hear you concerning the cost of gas. I may need a dual fuel system that runs 87 usually and 92 octane (throttle angle dependent) the way things are going ... As for the Ti pins, our customers have had a fair amount of grief over running them. They've proven to be "sticky" in the pin bores. Runnable in some applications and not in others--- even dependent on forging design sometimes. If you were to run any, it's mandatory to run DLC platings on them. Precision Products can be reached at 800 421 9150 and offer them under the trade-name "Casidium". Quality is first rate, but I can tell you that out of every Turbocharged import customer I've dealt with, none have gone that direction. At $85 per pin, you'll find better ways to spend your money.--Thanks, Brian Nutter

Time to go to work.

 

[pneumo]

I guess I've been holding back a bit since your original post made it seem like you were naive. Your recent posts show you are serious about this, so here's more info as best as I can give it.

One of the qualities that makes Ti so good in some applications and not so good in others is it's flexibility. On MatWeb.com it's called 'Modulus of Elasticity'. It basically means how much force it takes to flex a piece of metal a certain distance. This test is done without reaching the point where the metal is permanently bent. Typical Ti is about 55% more elastic than typical steels.

Luckily Ti has excellent fatigue resistance, so it can handle more flexing without breaking.

The density of Ti is also coincidentally about 57% of steel. What this means is that in order to make a piston pin out of both Ti and steel, and to make them with the same stiffness, they will also weigh about the same. But Ti has strength to spare, so it can be lightened a bit, which has the side effect of making the part more flexible. If a part can be made out of Ti where the extra flex doesn't matter then you get some nice gains, such as a con rod. But in a part where stiffness matters there needs to be some rethinking.

The bicycle industry has embraced Ti and made good use of it in frames. The first Ti frames were modeled after steel frames with similar diameter tubing. The first frames were lighter, but too flexible. Modern versions solved the flex issue by using larger diameter, thin walled tubes. They reached the point now where ti frames are plenty stiff enough, but to make them that stiff they had to use so much metal that they're actually much stronger than they need to be, and they're quite light now as well.

But how do you stiffen a piston pin? I'd like to see a pin with tapered internal diameter (thicker in the middle) and increased outer diameter (23mm would be nice). To get a bigger OD the rod and piston must also have larger holes. The piston and rod will need a redesign, but it can be done with enough money. As was asked in the thread where you found Brian Nutters post (thank you); what about going with 2G size pins and pistons since they're lighter than the 1G size parts and combine that with a rod that has a larger, 6 bolt size big end? Even the Wiseco 2G pistons weight less than Wiseco's 1G pistons (325 grams vs. 350g)

The new hard Ti coatings you mention sound like they would work well as long as they aren't brittle.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

The problem with high powered cars is NOT the engine components, you can build a steel engine for 1/8 the price that wiil handle more power then you can make with a 2 liter. If one holds 2000hp and another holds 10000hp, is there any benefit?

Your into machine shops and want to do soemthing worthwhile, build a custom CNC'ed head that flows twice as much. Maybe with that kind of airflow potential we'll need stronger engines then pauter rods can make.

 

[n3gativerr0r]

Exactly^^ Your not gonna make enough power with a 2.0 to warrant the use of Ti parts. Even Top Fuel cars use almost entirely steel parts. There is a nothing you could throw at cryo treated steel parts on a 2.0l that would make it unreliable other than terrible tuning. In the 80s the 1.5l motors in F1 cars pushed 56psi and made 1500hp consistantly and they used simple forged parts. Instead of wasting time trying to build a Ti bottom end do something worthwhile. Like a AWD drivetrain that doesnt crap out everyother time down the track, a FWD axle that can take big power consistantly, a better head, a steetable RWD transmission that will bolt up to a 4g63 and hold power and there are more.

 

[FireyIce01]

The problem with high powered cars is NOT the engine components, you can build a steel engine for 1/8 the price that wiil handle more power then you can make with a 2 liter. If one holds 2000hp and another holds 10000hp, is there any benefit?

Your into machine shops and want to do soemthing worthwhile, build a custom CNC'ed head that flows twice as much. Maybe with that kind of airflow potential we'll need stronger engines then pauter rods can make.

I suggest making a 4g63 head that will accept a DOHC MIVEC valvetrain. make it outta ti, who knows, it might work... I'll be more than happy to run one of the things if you can make it work... and that's where you'll make serious power...

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I suggest making a 4g63 head that will accept a DOHC MIVEC valvetrain. make it outta ti, who knows, it might work... I'll be more than happy to run one of the things if you can make it work... and that's where you'll make serious power...

Mivec is stupid. The last thing in the world I want to do is add a bunch of weight and complcation to an 800 hp car. Thats all it needs in life im sure. Especiialy to gain a few ft/lbs from 2-4000 rpm. And whats your obbsession with titanium? Its just metal. Forged Steel is just as effective and costs somewhere in the realm of feasibility.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Mivec is stupid. The last thing in the world I want to do is add a bunch of weight and complcation to an 800 hp car. Thats all it needs in life im sure. Especiialy to gain a few ft/lbs from 2-4000 rpm. And whats your obbsession with titanium? Its just metal. Forged Steel is just as effective and costs somewhere in the realm of feasibility.

Word. It's just like VTEC, it has no point on a race car. It is designed to increase power and gas mileage in the low rpms. Good idea on a stock car, stupid elsewhere.

 

[kpt4321]

This thread makes me sad.

"I want to make an engine with titanium, yO!"

If you had the skills to build a "no holds barred" engine that will "shock" the DSM community, you wouldn't be posting here asking questions.

Tell me this: What do you stand to gain by manufacturing these parts out of titanium? If you want to make a buttload of power, there are much more important things to spend your money on.

I like how you asked if this could be done for 10 grand. Ti rods and pistons are going to cost half that!

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

And you have to make sure its all inside a titanium block.

 

[autronicDSM]

I'm going to make my rods and pistons out of gold. They will be heavy so they will have a lot of momentum and make lot's of torque at low RPM. Plus if I go to a show every one will say "Dayum, that's a bling bling engine, yo!"

 

[burldude]

It looks like I have alot of people thnking here. Not many of the minds are on the same track though . 1500.00 bucks saved . I think that I will go ahead and keep saving and buy the whole Ti package from crower . This is the lightened crank and the ti rods and forged pistons . I will have to discuss what we can do about the ti pins , I dont want to skimp out there . I think there stroker kit was around 3500.00 Propably closer to 4500.00 with ti rods. I am pretty sure can get it all done with less than 10 grand . Its looking like it will be done this time next year. Ti Springs Iam still going to need to shop around for .

Why am I doing this ? Uhh ,becuase I want to ?
Has anyone here ever heard a totally built ti motor rev ? That is why I want to.

Time to go build a 500sq foot deck and make more for my buildup

 

[autronicDSM]

Have you ever heard five fingers talk to the face?

 

[blue92laser]

or a knuckle sandwitch for stupidity?

give me ur money...ill spend it wisely and make a fast car.