SS Tubular Manifold Bracing

[95RedTsiAwd]

Hey all, name here is John, I have been loitering here for along time, but since his is my first post and I'm trying to follow forum rules, I'm posting this in the newbie forums. Please feel free to move if I improperly posted here.

I recently purchased a 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD from Agent11br. I'm coming from a 1998 Talon N/T 420a FWD that I turbo'd myself. I kept running into traction issues, so I decided to step up to AWD . I'm swapping out his ported 2g manifold and 16G turbo, for a SS Tubular manifold and a .63 a/r T3/T4.

I've researched quite alot on tubular manifolds and the one recurring problem that people keep talking about are issues with the weight of the turbo, DP, and exhaust, putting too much stress on the bends and cracks occur. Thinking long and hard on this subject, I decided to try and brace the bends.

I started with (go ahead and laugh if you like) a Megan Racing SS Manifold that I purchased for $110+shipping from ebay. I went to my local metal supply and purchased 3/8 SU321 Stainless Rod and got to work on the tig with four braces from each runner to the junction of the flange and runners. I believe it puts lots more strength to the manifold. I've enclosed some random pics of the bracing. Car is still in progress so if you see stuff missing, it just hasn't been reinstalled yet. Please post any comments, ideas, or thoughts. I'll try to post on this again in a few months and let you know of any issues. Thanks

First pic is of the general layout

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Sencond pic, Closeup

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Third pic, Further side shot

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Fourth pic, I just threw in because I'm so proud of my little girl helpin dad in the garage

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[GVR4592]

You probably just doubled the chances of the manifold cracking. It's supposed to be able to expand and contract. With those braces it's going to put more stress on the runners when the manifold gets hot and expands. If you want to brace anything, brace the turbo to the block so the manifold isn't supporting the turbo's weight. Another thing to consider is that 304 stainless doesn't handle high temps very well, the header wrap is probably going to make matters worse. What filler rod did you use when welding the 321 to the 304 manifold?

 

[blackGSX2g]

Hey John, its Matt...What ever happened to you making the manifold from scratch? I know you've got the skills and the tools.

Well some of the eBay tubular manifolds have inside runner diameters less than stock, so I'd make sure you got a good one before you start investing time into it. If it looks ok, I'd brace it against the block with a good angular brace and call it a day. If it starts to crack at any of the welds, bust out the welder and fill'em in.

Have you had any cracking problems with your custom 420a manifold?

 

[95RedTsiAwd]

Heya Matt, although I could make one myself, with the cost of raw stainless and the time involved, for $100 bucks and some change was worth a little trial. If it doesn't work out, I'm not out hardly anything.

I inquired at Megan racing several times for information about the manifold before I bought it. The inner diameter of the runners is larger than the output of the exhaust ports on the engine, and Much larger than the ones on the ported 2g manny that was on the car already. The 420a manifold is still holding up just fine after over a year of boosting

As far as the bracing, although I won't admit to being an expert on he 4g63, I do know a fair amount about Drag cars in general. My father used to race alot at Martin (when it was martin). He used to brace 304 stainless headers on 1600hp Chevy 454's running a pair of T70 Turbos. Maybe I am still in the wrong, but I am going by decades of racing and the way they used to do things. Maybe there is some difference between 4cyl and 8cyl I don't understand yet. I've spent alot of time at the track and have seen many manifolds braced this way, I guess only time will tell. I appreciate the critisizm GV, it's the only way things get perfected . I'll post updates on the condition, probably some pics in a few months. If anything goes awry I'll post again.

If you get a chance, take time to look at large Turbo'd drag cars. Notice that a large quantity of V8 Turbo'd drag cars are header wrapped. Again maybe there is a large fundemental difference between 4's and 8's. There is a reason they make the wrap, most people just don't use it because they believe it looks ugly. The second reason is because of the distance of the header to my CF hood is gonna be kinda close, no denying that it dramatically reduces underhood temps.

Again, thanks for all the advice and criticizm. Please keep it coming. I'll let you all know how it goes. Happy Boosting

 

[GVR4592]

Header wrap definitely has advantages, but it can greatly reduce the life of a 304 turbo manifold. 304 doesn't stand up to high temps over long periods of time.

There isn't really any difference between fabricating a manifold for a V8 or a 4 cyl. Either way you don't want to restrict the expansion and contraction of the manifold. Bracing isn't bad as long as it's done correctly. Most bracing is done to relieve the manifold of having to support the weight of the turbo, whereas your bracing prevents the weight of the turbo from transferring towards the block. It's not really supporting anything, but it's restricting expansion.

You definitely have the right idea though, with proper bracing the manifold would definitely last longer.

 

[95RedTsiAwd]

The way I always understood it was that the point of the bracing was to restrict the expansion. The expansion and contraction is what cracks the welds. I guess only time will tell. I have considered maybe going with angular braces to the block as well. I'll have to do some more measuring and see how viable it is.

I've talked with some people at my local speed shop about the header wrap. The only thing everyone there could agree on, was that it does reduce the temps under the hood, which would help to keep my CF hood from melting As far as length of deteriorating the stainless, they were kinda torn on it. The gentleman I talked with used it and swore by it, saying as long as you wrap correctly and use the spray treatment it would extend the life of the stainless. However the other gentleman there said he knew of times that it caused moisture to get under it and cause more issues than it helped. I'm beginning to wonder if it is one of those questions like which is the best oil to use in my car. No one will probably ever agree

Thanks again for the discussion It's great to see others points of view

Happy Boosting.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Bringing this back up.

I picked up a crap eBay T3 manifold off of a local for very cheap, and to be honest, I don't trust it all that much. I've always used cast, but for what I paid for this thing, I had to jump on it.

Now, the bracing ideas. To support the weight of the turbo, are you talking about running braces from, say, an O2 housing bolt, to a spot on the block, and so on?

I'd like to not have to rip this thing back off in a few months if at all possible

 

[GVR4592]

Support it from the block or the head, that's the only way to keep the weight off of the manifold.

 

[r6speed]

Sorry to bring an old thread back up, but its really the only good thread about bracing a manifold. So since the pictures here don't work I am hoping someone else could post some pictures of a braced manifold...also maybe some more suggestions on weather its a good thing or a bad thing. I am purchasing an aluminum manifold and would like to know what to do. Thanks

 

[turbosax2]

Aluminum? Are you talking intake or exhaust manifold?

This thread is about bracing exhaust manifolds because of the weight of bigger turbos.