Oil Squirters? [Merged 8-9]

[Hobbes =^.^=]

I may be building a stroker engine. And the 4g64 shortblocks don't come with oil squirters. Should I have them machine shop put 1g style ones in? If so how much should it cost me? Or should I not use them, and get my pistons ceramic coated.

I have heard that are alot of turbo-charged cars don't have oil squirters.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Maglin]

My take on this. If you have a 6 bolt kept them. If you have a 1G 7 bolt maybe kept them but it's up to you. (the block is made of densier iron so I hear than the 2G 7 bolt) If you have a 2G might as well remove them and not have to worry about one sticking open and starving a main bearing for oil.

 

[red91gst]

Why would you make this argument for forged pistons?

Because almost every aftermarket forged piston is desgined to operate without oil squirters. Call up Pat at Ross Racing Pistons and he'll tell you the same thing. In my opinion, the oil squirters are not needed in higher hp motors, especially forged piston motors. All I can reference to is my experience with a 7-bolt built motor that spun a rod bearing. After rebuild, we removed the oil squirters and elimnated the problem.

Nate
SBR

 

[Lunch_Box]

The reason I am asking is because I am going to be building a 2.4l block up and the g4cs does not come with oil squirter holes drilled. I like my oil squirters and would prefer if the g4cs had them. How hard would it be to have them installed?

A lot of high HP people are driving around with out the oil squiters and as Nate has said forged pistons are designed to operate with out them I am building up a G4CS over the winter and I am not going to waste time and money for the squiters.

 

[OverboostXS]

What about 1g 7bolts whats the take on that? I for Instance have 8.5 wisecos, i was planning on putting the squirters back in, it was my preference but all theese reasons not to are troubling me. If someone has any input on this i would be grateful.

 

[red91gst]

What about 1g 7bolts whats the take on that? I for Instance have 8.5 wisecos, i was planning on putting the squirters back in, it was my preference but all theese reasons not to are troubling me. If someone has any input on this i would be grateful.

I'd have to say leave them out. We have had some bad experiences building the 1g 7-bolt with oil squirters. The same motor rebuilt twice spun the number 4 rod bearing few miles after rebuild. The third time we removed the oil squirters and the motor now has over 10k miles on it. I cant say for sure that removing the squirters was the sole reason the motor stayed together this time, but I'm not going to argue. This is why every 7-bolt we build, and have built over the past 5 years, has no oil squirters.

Nate
SBR

 

[greathuskie]

i had 2 oil squirters break off a while back and havent decided yet to fix them and replace the 2 that broke off, or block all of them

what would be the best course of action with it, i know marco from magnus blocks all squirters, however im thinking maybe i could just replace the 2 and hope it doesnt happe again

what would you do?

 

[TSIfreek]

I would keep them in a 6 bolt. Marco doesnt use the squrters in the 7 bolts for the crank walk issues.
As long as they are installed crrectly and not hittng the pistons they should not break off. Never bend the tip of the squirter this weakens the weld holding the tip to the body.

 

[1fast97gsx]

so how about on a 6 bolt block ... anyone recommend keeping them in and why? Wiseco pistons ... shifting at 8500.

 

[doug]

It's been mentioned in this thread like 2-3 times already that it's recommended to keep them on a 6-bolt block. Including in the post right before yours. And it's also been said that for forged pistons that they're not really needed, so it's your call.

 

[Pobryan]

I'm in the middle of rebuilding the bottom end of a 4g63 damaged by a spun connector rod bearing. I'm planning on having the block boiled. There are oil jets as the DSM manual calls them. The manual calls for pressing them out with a metal bar and then replacing them with a 4-5 mm pin punch from the crank journal side. Reading thru the searches I here guys talking about drilled and tapped hole? Also I'm having a hard time locating new jets to replace these. Any Sources out there? Thank You

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

You guys that are unsure about the oil squirters need to read the EXTREME TECH forum. They talk about the stock oil pump making too much oil pressure and the relief valve. My engine builder would smack you guys for saying not to use the squirters, they are there for a reason. I'd never run without them personally, if its there to help cool the piston, it may give you a slightly higher margin for error, but thats just me. I dont know as much about DSM's as i'd like, but the extreme tech forum will set you straight.

 

[94awdcoupe]

The factory placed two oil squirters in both 6 and 7 bolts. Both are aimed at the exhasut side of the piston. Shooting down the quarter mile for 10,12 seconds squirters are not needed. But get next to a hyabusa on the highway and race wide open for 30 seconds and you are gonna want that precious piston cooling squirt. doesn't matter whether piston is forged or not.

The check valve in both the 1g and 2g is set at 15 psi. Below that is where these engines have thrust bearing problems from lack of sufficient oil film stregnth. Once these engines get some miles on them, the bearing clearances loosen up and oil pressure gets too low at idle when the engine is fully warmed up.


The reason 7 bolts get crank walk is because the cranks are NOT nitrided from the factory like 6 bolt cranks. This includes EVO8 cranks. The difference in surface hardness is night and day between the two cranks. Any other crankwalk theory is just plain stupid.

If anyone has both cranks sittin around try taking a file to the surface of both. You will be shocked at how easy the 7 bolt crank cuts. You dont have to test on a bearing journal. You can test on the nose wear the gear mounts. I have both cranks ready for the file test at my shop. Every new customer gets to file test. The look on their face is priceless.

This also means its stupid to toss all the 7 bolt advatages out the window for a 6 bolt. During your 7 bolt build you can have the crank nitrided. You can also buy new forged cranks from Toda.

 

[BrokenTsi]

I have a 6bolt non turbo block in my car. It has 1st gen big rods with stock 1g turbo pistons and bshafts removed.

In my last motor, an oil squirter broke and fragmented thru the block and took out a balance shaft. The bearing for the balance shaft broke into a million pieces. My car ran like that for 2 years. I had very low oil pressure at idle and the lifters ticked at low rpm's even while cruising.

I removed them to eliminate that possibility. I mean, how much cooler can it be? It squirts hot oil and I dont think it makes a difference either way.

Yeah mitsuibishi put them in the block, but that was like 20 years ago, seemed like a good idea at the time, but I dont think they are necesary.

 

[4GSixty3]

I'm running a non turbo 6 bolt block with turbo pistons in it. I have no oil squirters either and I haven't had an issue yet. Of course, 1100 miles on my rebuild probably isn't enough to tell yet but we'll see.

 

[98spydert]

The factory placed two oil squirters in both 6 and 7 bolts. Both are aimed at the exhasut side of the piston. Shooting down the quarter mile for 10,12 seconds squirters are not needed. But get next to a hyabusa on the highway and race wide open for 30 seconds and you are gonna want that precious piston cooling squirt. doesn't matter whether piston is forged or not.

Have you ever seen a forged piston? Go to your shop and set a stock piston and forged piston side by side. You'll notice they are not the same exact same design just different materials. I don't know if you bothered to read the entire thread but SBR already pointed out the aftermarket pistons are not designed for use with the oil squirters and won't benefit much from using them.

As for the whole crank walk theory, prove it. I wouldn't even walk that road unless you're ready to get into a huge argument and what's proven(nothing) and what's "plain stupid". In which case, I'd start a new thread. Make sure to tell your customers that the two cranks are also two different metals, cast iron and cast steel, not just that one's nitrated.

 

[Defiant]

The check valve in both the 1g and 2g is set at 15 psi. Below that is where these engines have thrust bearing problems from lack of sufficient oil film stregnth.

Oil pressure and film strength aren't related. Oil pressure is to force out hot oil and replace it with cool oil. It has no relation to film strength, that's a caracteristic of the oil blend.

The reason 7 bolts get crank walk is because the cranks are NOT nitrided from the factory like 6 bolt cranks. This includes EVO8 cranks. The difference in surface hardness is night and day between the two cranks.

Interesting. Factory information claims they're both nitrided. I'd not heard this one before.

 

[Defiant]

I removed them to eliminate that possibility. I mean, how much cooler can it be? It squirts hot oil and I dont think it makes a difference either way.

Your "hot" oil is about 200°. The pistons are in a chamber holding 4000° gases. Oil squirters do significant cooling of the piston crowns, regardless their construction.

As always, do what you like with your stuff, as I will with mine.

 

[boostedinaz]

The factory placed two oil squirters in both 6 and 7 bolts. Both are aimed at the exhasut side of the piston. Shooting down the quarter mile for 10,12 seconds squirters are not needed. But get next to a hyabusa on the highway and race wide open for 30 seconds and you are gonna want that precious piston cooling squirt. doesn't matter whether piston is forged or not.

The check valve in both the 1g and 2g is set at 15 psi. Below that is where these engines have thrust bearing problems from lack of sufficient oil film stregnth. Once these engines get some miles on them, the bearing clearances loosen up and oil pressure gets too low at idle when the engine is fully warmed up.


The reason 7 bolts get crank walk is because the cranks are NOT nitrided from the factory like 6 bolt cranks. This includes EVO8 cranks. The difference in surface hardness is night and day between the two cranks. Any other crankwalk theory is just plain stupid.

If anyone has both cranks sittin around try taking a file to the surface of both. You will be shocked at how easy the 7 bolt crank cuts. You dont have to test on a bearing journal. You can test on the nose wear the gear mounts. I have both cranks ready for the file test at my shop. Every new customer gets to file test. The look on their face is priceless.

This also means its stupid to toss all the 7 bolt advatages out the window for a 6 bolt. During your 7 bolt build you can have the crank nitrided. You can also buy new forged cranks from Toda.

So how do you explain all the people running around with a 6 bolt and a crank that has been resized. They dont get crankwalk right away, yet people with stock 7 bolts get it. I would have to laugh at someone that bought some ubber cool forged crank to "get rid" of crankwalk when the stock crank has gone mid 8's.

 

[gixrman]

The reason 7 bolts get crank walk is because the cranks are NOT nitrided from the factory like 6 bolt cranks. This includes EVO8 cranks. The difference in surface hardness is night and day between the two cranks. Any other crankwalk theory is just plain stupid.

So your saying that the crank is softer than the bearing and that the crank wears out before the bearing???? If so then why does everone who has stated that there trust bearing is gone wrong? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds stupid.

 

[bert043]

just thought i'd add that im pretty sure i remember reading in hot rod mag when shep was in there that he block the factory oil squirters. But then that also falls into the whole racecar personal car thing too. Also thought i'd add that my car had a 4g63 NON turbo motor installed before i bought it(didn't no it) and it doesn't have oil squirters and my motor still crankwalked gets me all pissed off just thinkin bout it.

 

[Erok]

The reason 7 bolts get crank walk is because the cranks are NOT nitrided from the factory like 6 bolt cranks. This includes EVO8 cranks. The difference in surface hardness is night and day between the two cranks. Any other crankwalk theory is just plain stupid.

, so ahh, no....
both cranks are definatly nitrided, like someone said earlier different metels same coating, it may only be like .005" thick (cant remember exactly) but they both go threw same process (why u polish it) there are to many variables to bi*** about crankwalk theory, and in the end no one is going to agree so lets just stick to wether or not oil squirters are needed for longevity not just crankwalk theories, if you dont have experience im sorry but shut the hell up, i c to much writing that is not backed by anything more than something their friend thought they herd from their friends shop, wich is compleatly wrong and spreads like brushfire, im sorry but good god stick to a topic and dont go into crankwalk theories for once...
and yes i have had 2 different 2g's that have crankwalked on me but im not going to go giving my wack ass theories about why, after throwing a new shortblock in it ive never had one problem and it put down around 360 hp as a daily driver i definatly beat on it)
my opinion= daily driver mild hp keep the squirters
forgedinternals or heavy mods on stocker-take em out

 

[sno_boarder4343]

So hereres wht im trying to do here. i have a 1994 nonturbo block but i am trying to make it turbo. however the oil squirtres have no place to be put in. what should i do?

 

[T man DSM]

what kind of internals do you plan on using?

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bol...rters-problem.html?highlight=no+oil+squirters

Try this ^^^ I think it might have some useful information for you.

 

[300dollarGSX]

If you want to run them, the bosses (the flat spots) should already exist. They just need to be drilled and tapped. If you're having machine work done, you could get them to do this for you as well. They're not absolutely required, though.