Look at my setup and tell me if...

[Cesar]

Thanks for looking. I have two simple questions...

1-Will I have boost creep?
2-Will I have Detonation if I run high boost (20 psi)

Here is my setup
-Evo 3 untouched, not ported (11psi stock wastegate actuator)
-fully rebuild head (stock)
-fully rebuild bottom end (0.030" ross 8.5:1, eagle rods, I know it's overkill for an evo3)
-full three inch downpipe (maybe after flex section)
-full three inch catalytic converter
-full three inch cat back
-stock o2 sensor housing.
-no MBC or eletronic boost controller, other than factory boost control solenoid.
-**94**octane (SUNOCO ROCKS)
-I have *some* drivetrain mods but they are irrelevant in this case.

Thank you for your time and patience.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Yes, Yes

 

[blcknspo0ln]

since the question has been answered i'll put my .02

you're putting money in the wrong places. Why build your motor if you plan on running a b16g with 11 psi? that could be done easily on a stock motor. hell, you can run 20+ psi on the stock motor with supporting mods.

oh, and 3" o2 back is not wise, AT LEAST port out your current one, or else you'll boost creep like no tomorrow.

I'm sure you thought about this setup, but it makes no sense to me. the money to build your motor you could buy a nice hallman pro, boost gauge, 3" o2 [ or at least a ported one ] , buy a ported evo III b16g, and probably have money left over for injectors/safc.

if you dont mind me asking, why this setup?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Hrmmm, going with a 3 inch 02 housing is great for power, it causes boost creep because it creates such favorable conditions for the turbo. Better spool, better power.....More work for you but wise. Might as well says big turbos are a bad idea because you could break a transmission.

 

[Cesar]

-*stock o2 sensor housing*(for now)
-built a stout block now, never worry about it again...

TURBOS ARE EASILY SWAPPED. Motors a a lot of money to build, so do it once do it right.

I'm pearsonally against piggy back fuel management, I'm in the process of going full standalone as my first fuel control mod. (speed density should free up the restrictions in the intake tract)

After the car is build and running, I'll start searching for a bigger turbo, appropriate manifold, external wastegate with dump mounted on the o2. Not rebuild my motor again.

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming...

 

[Cesar]

I forgot to mention, this motor has not been put together yet. The block is being decked, honed and bored as we speak.
I might go with a metal head gasket, head studs and main studs...

I don't think I'll have detonation since intake temps will be cool with the evo3 (lower temps reduce the chance of knock) and with no mbc there will bw no delayed reaction with the wastegate actuator.

Remember 94 octane

 

[rarson]

I think if you used octane booster then you could run 47 psi. But I might just be benchracing.

If you get detonation at "high boost" then you can either tune it out or turn the boost down. Theorizing about a setup that's not even built yet is just pointless guessing.

 

[kpt4321]

You'll creep to over 20 psi, no problem.

With stock injectors, you can't run more than about 15 with that turbo.

You could very well lose your motor to 5-10 psi overboost with that turbo.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I forgot to mention, this motor has not been put together yet. The block is being decked, honed and bored as we speak.
I might go with a metal head gasket, head studs and main studs...

I don't think I'll have detonation since intake temps will be cool with the evo3 (lower temps reduce the chance of knock) and with no mbc there will bw no delayed reaction with the wastegate actuator.

Remember 94 octane

It does not matter if the air is at 32 degrees farenheit. You will not have enough fuel for 20 PSI and you will detonate. I don't think you have any concept of what detonation is at all. Air temps, while potentially harmful, are NOT the primary cause.

Stock injuectors do not have the capacity to make over 270 whp on pump gas. Beyond this point, you will simply detonate. Since 20 PSI with a stand alone on a 16g will make well over 300 hp, you will blow your engine to pieces unless your standalone knows how to deal with having been tuned by an idiot.

And yes, you should get metal head and main studs.

 

[Cesar]

I think if you used octane booster then you could run 47 psi. But I might just be benchracing.

If you get detonation at "high boost" then you can either tune it out or turn the boost down. Theorizing about a setup that's not even built yet is just pointless guessing.

There is nothing wrong with what you call "theorizing". I'm just using educated guesses to plan for my ideal setup. I'm sure they didn't build the space shuttle just hoping that it would work. It was the first vehicle of it's kind, and it was built most on theory. It doesn't have a flaless track record, but it has proven itself time and time again.

kpt4321, thank you...
A good reply with no obnoxious comment.

What do you mean when you say I can't run more than 15psi with the EVo3 turbo, and with stock injectors? (does it blow hot air after that?) As opposed to any other turbo?

I'm in the process of negotiating for an USED Aem Ems with 3.5 bar sensor and the IAT. (still need the 2g knock sensor)
A full standalone and injectors will let me run "high boost" with my motor, no?

Instock officer... injectors aren't hard to get (nor or they expensive), managing them is the difficult part, And i don't really feel like running rich, I would like to tune through a wideband o2.


Bigger intercooler?

should I consider an external wastegate? A different turbo?

*I"m not trying to argue whether or not this setup will work, just gathering info*

It seems to me like the combination of high compression with the evo3 creeping is what everyone is warning me against, I'm simply trying to "theorize" a solution before the problem actually happens.
Thanks

by the way, instock officer, you don't have to worry, my car will not be tuned by an idiot...

 

[Cesar]

Instockofficer...


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1080237#post1080237

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

What do bigger injectors have to do with runnign rich? I run injectors almost twice as big as stock and don't run sich, this is where tuning comes in. The FACT is, that 450cc injectors cannot run 20 psi on a 16g.

This has nothing to do with heat and an intercooler would make the problem worse because you would flow even more air.


At 13 - 16, in that area, I your injectors will reach 100% duty cycle. They will be open ALL the time, just to keep your car from blowing up. Goes another PSI and you drop your target a/f ratio because your injectors were already open for every millisecond of their injection window. Go to 20 and you'll rad rods coming out blocks.

Standalones DO let smaller injectors go a bit further, but not much, its a mechanically limited problem.

 

[kpt4321]

What do you mean when you say I can't run more than 15psi with the EVo3 turbo, and with stock injectors? (does it blow hot air after that?) As opposed to any other turbo?

On a 4G63 *around* 15 psi, the total airflow of any decent turbo reaches a point where 450's cannot maintain a safe air to fuel ratio on pump gas.

I'm in the process of negotiating for an USED Aem Ems with 3.5 bar sensor and the IAT. (still need the 2g knock sensor)
A full standalone and injectors will let me run "high boost" with my motor, no?

An EvoIII16g is really not "high boost" turbo.

A standalone and injectors will help, but you may need more (intercooling, other small stuff, who knows).

 

[Cesar]

just like you said, duty cycle.

bigger injectors with the same duty cycle will run rich when off boost with the stock fuel management. I don't want' carbon on my valves, nor conecting rods through my block.

I don't think your getting my drift here...the only reason I'm not getting bigger injectors, is because I didn't have a way to control them. I wasn't going to go full standalone right of the bat, but i will if I have to to make this setup work.

 

[Cesar]

On a 4G63 *around* 15 psi, the total airflow of any decent turbo reaches a point where 450's cannot maintain a safe air to fuel ratio on pump gas.



An EvoIII16g is really not "high boost" turbo.

A standalone and injectors will help, but you may need more (intercooling, other small stuff, who knows).

20g with the bigger turbine wheel?? external dump?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

20g with the bigger turbine wheel?? external dump?

You'll only be able to run 14 psi instead of 15. Its an airflow game. Bigger turbo means a smaller amnount of boost equals the airflow where the injectors are maxed out.

You eitheir need to plan on running less boost or mure fuel. On the stock ecu the car won't even let your run 20 PSI on 450's, it will fuel cut.

 

[Cesar]

Your saying that a bigger turbo will flow cooler air reaching fuel cut sooner on the same boost level? Hmm.


If I go standalone, I can run like 750 cc injectors, no?

 

[Cesar]

http://webhome.idirect.com/~neethlin/default.html

this guy is 20 minutes from my house and I'm pretty sure it's canadian pricing on those systems...

Just a thought

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Your saying that a bigger turbo will flow cooler air reaching fuel cut sooner on the same boost level? Hmm.


If I go standalone, I can run like 750 cc injectors, no?

This has nothing to do with air temperature. Volume volume volume!