Is this a possibility?

[thelanceman]

I have a 420a motor sitting on an engine stand from a 95 eclipse that met an untimely end... I plan to completely rebuild this motor with new pistons, rods, cams, etc... I just bought a NA 96 Talon ESi... this will be my daily driver til I am ready to swap the stock motor for the built one.... My goal is to be quick without a turbo or nitrous... not fast... just to reach mid 14's... then I want to add a serious nitrous shot on the order of 75-100... so witht the flick of a switch I go from a tame reliable engine to something more serious... with a goal of low 13's... This way I maintain my gas milage, and don't have the headaches of adding a turbo kit. I like the idea of power only on demand.... is this a good path to choose and what other systems will I have to upgrade to hold the nitrous shot? What pistons and compression would you reccomend for a NA but nitrous injected daily driver? How do I go about tuning an ECU? I am doing this buildup under the guideance of a domestic fan who only knows carburated engines and not a thing about fuel injection....

 

[GSGoinFast]

I have a 420a motor sitting on an engine stand from a 95 eclipse that met an untimely end... I plan to completely rebuild this motor with new pistons, rods, cams, etc... I just bought a NA 96 Talon ESi... this will be my daily driver til I am ready to swap the stock motor for the built one.... My goal is to be quick without a turbo or nitrous... not fast... just to reach low 14's... then I want to add a serious nitrous shot on the order of 75-100... so witht the flick of a switch I go from a tame reliable engine to something more serious... with a goal of low 13's... This way I maintain my gas milage, and don't have the headaches of adding a turbo kit. I like the idea of power only on demand.... is this a good path to choose and what other systems will I have to upgrade to hold the nitrous shot? What pistons and compression would you reccomend for a NA but nitrous injected daily driver? How do I go about tuning an ECU? I am doing this buildup under the guideance of a domestic fan who only knows carburated engines and not a thing about fuel injection....

i hope that was a typo and you meant to say low 15's. with a built engine, you will be able to run a 150 shot easily... but you will probably have traction problems on the street... although i dont know why you would run a 150 shot on teh street... anyways, if you want to be quick all motor and still run nitrous, i would go with 10.5:1 compression ratio. also get ss valves to run higher nitrous shots. and to tune the ecu, id go with a s-afc or megasquirt or somethign of that nature

 

[thelanceman]

Actually I don't know how realistic my goals are... 15s would be fine by all means for just the motor... I don't care to get into the complexity of a turboed car here... thats not a goal of mine. I want a camaro and mustang killer, but only when I flip my arming switch. Thats my goal. Now is that a reality?


Building a stronger engine is easier for me than tuning one... once you go there I am lost. I know what the ECU does and how it works, but thats about it.

 

[ShadowWulf]

Well, fully built with a 150 shot, then id have to say that yes, for that shory time the bottle lasts you can toast a camaro or mustang. However, youre only going to be toasting them for a few seconds until you HAVE to let off that switch. Thats assuming youre talking about using it on the street/highway. Theres a chance you could lock the soleoininds open if you stay on it more than 20 seconds i believe (on some kits). That...would be VERY bad.

 

[thelanceman]

Well I plan to install a top of the line nitrous kit, that being my only real performance maker. A computer controlled wet system of some sort to avoid fuel problems. And even then, I only want it to come on when armed and at WOT. I don't expect to be running 13 seconds in any daily driver. I want low 15s off the motor with more power when I choose. (messing with friends and dragging from a light) other than that I want a motor thats gonna last another 150,000 miles and get decent mpg. Too many conflicting interest?

 

[Endz0r]

150,000 miles and spraying a 100+ shot of nitrous? i don't really see that happening.

honestly, and i don't mean to sound like an ass, but it sounds like you haven't done any research.

also, turbo is "on demand power" just like nitrous. if i don't want to boost, i can go up to 6grand and not spool my turbo at all. unless you have a lead foot or a small turbo you won't really spool the turbo too much, meaning less strain on your motor.

 

[thelanceman]

150,000 miles and spraying a 100+ shot of nitrous? i don't really see that happening.

honestly, and i don't mean to sound like an ass, but it sounds like you haven't done any research.

also, turbo is "on demand power" just like nitrous. if i don't want to boost, i can go up to 6grand and not spool my turbo at all. unless you have a lead foot or a small turbo you won't really spool the turbo too much, meaning less strain on your motor.

Heres my deal with that. I have a ESi, a car that came with a NA engine. Adding a turbo to an engine that didn't come that way from the factory is a lot of work. It requires more down-time, has to be installed with the engine in the car, and has to be tuned absolutely perfectly to produce power correctly. It is also an expense that is much more upfront... 3000 for a decent kit.... as opposed to 1500 for engine internals and a nitrous kit that can be had later. That is part of my reasoning for choosing the odd upgrade path.

I am building up a 420a on a stand, driving the car with its stock engine in the meantime, and not looking to add a turbo. Before you tell me I have not done my research, read the post first and do your own reseach to see that I don't drive a turboed car. I don't drive a factory turboed car for a reason too. I'm 19 and could not afford to pay the insurance month to month, let alone more gas and higher upkeep. I am not looking to spray a 150 daily and expect 150,000 miles either. If you want to provide some valuable input that you think I may not have realized, go ahead.

 

[ShadowWulf]

He was talking about rebuilding the motor anyways. Maybe the trannie/clutch will be a problem though. In fact, unless you have a good clutch on that im gonna almost guarantee it going to slip on you when you start spraying. The motor wont last 100K miles though in all likely hood on a 150shot if you use it alot either. Sparingly though....maybe.

Do some research, here, and also at www.2gnt.com and the official NX/NOS/ZEX sites among others.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Well, fully built with a 150 shot, then id have to say that yes, for that shory time the bottle lasts you can toast a camaro or mustang. However, youre only going to be toasting them for a few seconds until you HAVE to let off that switch. Thats assuming youre talking about using it on the street/highway. Theres a chance you could lock the soleoininds open if you stay on it more than 20 seconds i believe (on some kits). That...would be VERY bad.

im not sure what your talking about having to let off the switch. i go with mine through the entire race. im not sure of too many people who will race for more then 20 seconds anyway. but theres nothing saying he can only spray for a few seconds during a race, he can spray all the way through if he wants.

are you talking V8 stangs and cameros, or V6's? V6's shouldnt be too much for you without the nitrous

 

[dr1665]

Adding a turbo to an engine that didn't come that way from the factory is a lot of work. It requires more down-time, has to be installed with the engine in the car, and has to be tuned absolutely perfectly to produce power correctly.

Interesting...

And you think that squeezing does not require any down time, in-car installation, or absolutely perfect tuning to produce power correctly? You're probably right. It's not like you're injecting an explosive gas into the combustion chamber. You do know how/why nitrous works, right? Methinks you need to do some research comparing how turbos and nitrous make power. You're saying you don't want a turbo because you don't want to have to do the things you will have to do to make power on the bottle.

 

[ShadowWulf]

I was talking about track racing vs highway. Sorry if i wasnt clear. On the track, yea you can spray the whole time. On a highway people tend to race a lot longer/further than at a track (miles in some cases) where spraying the whole time could be a real big problem.

 

[thelanceman]

Interesting...

And you think that squeezing does not require any down time, in-car installation, or absolutely perfect tuning to produce power correctly? You're probably right. It's not like you're injecting an explosive gas into the combustion chamber. You do know how/why nitrous works, right? Methinks you need to do some research comparing how turbos and nitrous make power. You're saying you don't want a turbo because you don't want to have to do the things you will have to do to make power on the bottle.

To be honest, I don't have that much experence with turbos. Adding a system that big to an already cramped engine bay is something I don't want to attempt. A stock motor and a race built motor are going to look identical side by side. To me thats a simple swap. Thats reason number one for not choosing the turbo route. Now heres some more:

Do you disagree that adding a turbo would be much more expensive and take more install time than simply adding a nitrous kit?? Lets just say this project car is completely stock with 115,000 miles on the ticker.... which is exactly what my car is at this time.

Now say I have an extra 420a motor on a stand, all the time I want, all the help and advice I need, and can fund the project as I am able to.

"I don't want to turbocharge to 'avoid doing thing I will have to do to make power on the bottle'" Thats the most rediculous thing I have heard yet! How many 420a owners who have gone turbo have completely racebuilt thier internals as well??

I choose not to go turbo because it is a much more expensive option, something I am not farmiliar with, and requires so much down time.

I have no doubt that I could install a turbo kit if I wanted. Just give me an extra car to drive while I do it, give me the 4 grand or more for the kit, gauges, and AFC, and a new engine so when I blow my stocker with 115,000 miles on it.... oh and come help me tune it... I live in New Orleans... race shop and import capitol of the world....

What am I missing here??? I already did my research and decided that this is the way to go for me... maybe not everyone... but definately for me....

ShadowWulf and GSGoinFast you guys have been very helpful, sorry I don't know anyones name yet.

About running on the track, never done it... Once I took my friends new Si hatchback down the track against a Mustang GT on an open night.... of course I lost but he thought it was the fastest thing in the world.... Eventually I will start running my car there, but not until my buildup is done... I just want to have some fun against him and that GT... and that Z28... and...

 

[thelanceman]

To everyone reading and thinking nitrous is going to blow up a built engine:
To everyone reading and thinking I have not done my research, I throw this out there:

The only way to produce more power is by increasing the amount of oxygen and fuel into the motor. Those are the only two things needed for combustion. If you have those two components and nothing else, you have your fire.

A turbo does this by creating pressure in the manifold, which forces air into the engine. Air contains oxygen. The ECU 'sees' this extra oxygen and adds the extra fuel. Bam, more power.

The higher the boost pressure, the more air gets in, more power is produced, and more stress is put on the parts.

In that same equation, Nitrous is 'liquid air." (two nitrogen and one oxygen molecule) Inject liquid air into the engine in addition to the air the engine is already taking in, add fuel... BAM, more power. The problem with nitrous is that the ECU may or may not 'see' the extra oxygen as it is INJECTED into the cylinder. If you add one component of combustion and not the other you have a problem. (detonation, knock, preigniton)
Whatever you call this problem does not matter.... its still a problem and WILL blow up your engine. This is why nitrous has a bad name.

Adding to the bad name of nitrous is that it is cheap, easy to install, adds tons or power, is expensive to run, and easy to add too much. Look at that list. They may not all sounds like drawbacks of nitrous, which is why I did not call them that... Those are just the reasons that nitrous has a bad name and people tend not to use it. The people who have the know how and money to add a turbo know better. They wouldn't expect to run super high boost on the street every day and expect thier cars to last. They know if they try to push the engine to where it shouldn't go, they will blow it up.

The real drawback of nitrous oxide is that you can only carry so much of it... 20 pounds of the stuff will only last 30-40 seconds. More or less depending on the size of the nozzle. That 30-40 seconds also cost 30-40 bucks to run. So people who want to run with lots of power for more than 30-40 seconds and don't want to spend a billion dollars filling bottles turn to turbos. That is the only REAL drawback to nitrous in my opinion. That drawback is also the reason people spend so much time, money, and effort on turbocharging thier cars.

You CAN add nitrous AND a turbo, but then you NEED a SERIOUSLY modded car to take all the power the combination of the two are going to produce or, once again, you WILL blow up your engine. Also... that said... AWD's are the only guys who are going to be able to put that to the ground.


I direct this at dr1665... Nitrous Oxide is laughing gas and is NOT an explosive gas in itself! It IS flammable and will combust with the right ignition source, as with almost anything. Liquid Oxygen however would combust without an ignition source and is the reason that Nitrous Oxide is used in cars instead. However, injecting liquid oxygen into the cylinder would have exactly the same effect as nitrous does. It is just a more stricly regulated material because of its chemical properties (very reactive) as opposed to Nitrous Oxide (inert laughing gas)

 

[dustyb]

(one nitrogen and two oxygen molecules)

that would be no2. nitrous oxide is n2o which is two parts nitrogen and one part oxygen....

 

[goalieman24]

wow dude you have wayy too much time to be typing all that... which there is really no need to. thats great you like to show off your knowledge but most of the people you are directing that at already know it A good turbo kit isnt quite as much money and work as you are making it seem. 4 grand or more for just the turbo kit?? you need to shop somewhere else. And as long as you are building the motor which you say you are... you dont have to worry about a new engine from blowing the other one. Built 420a's can hold a good amount of boost. Putting on a turbo kit can be a weekend project as long as you have the tools and the smarts, not something thats going to leave your car down for a month(although anything is possible).

 

[ShadowWulf]

He was just tired of people telling him he didnt know what he was getting into is all, i can understand the feeling which is why i myself spens an inordinate ammount of time resurching everything i can as of late.

And again, my only concern would be the duration of the shot, not that its going to blow the motor up per-se, but that it is possible the n20 soloinoid can actually freeze open or shut from to long of a shot duration. NX Soloinoids are rated at 15 seconds max, though i have gone over that by 2 or so seconds once. Im not sure about some others though, and maybe there are parts that arent prone to this problem. This is information i gleaned from a NX rep btw.
Besides that, id like to hear updates on this. What parts youre going to use, what kit, etc. Im going the built motor route when my stock 420a eventually goes out anyways (though i only have 60K on it so far).

As a disclamer i have never known anybody to have done this, but then again most of my friends dont know a carb from a cat either.

 

[GSGoinFast]

actually lanceman they dont use liquid oxygen because the motor would blow... the nitrogen acts as a buffer to keep temperatures down.