Intercooler Thread

[turbohounds]

Just came across this thread today, and thought I'd correct one thing - all else being equal (even air flow across the entire cooler), you will get more efficient cooling from a short path top-bottom design. Heat transfer is driven by the temperature difference, thus most of the cooling is done in the top portion of the cooler. Don't get fooled by the short path arguement, physics isn't on your side. Back in the real world, I run a side to side FMIC on my car, mostly because it packages so much easier.

 

[sweet97]

So you think my Spearco 2-221 which is a top-bottom 18.5" x 6" x 3.5" has a chance to cool the charge from my 50 trim at say 20 psi? It flows 1080CFM @ 1.5 PSI drop. Spearco rates it at being capable of supporting 760HP, I would be happy with 400 crank. Mark

 

[pboglio]

Mark,

Based on 20 psi, 75% compressor efficiency, and 85* ambient temps, your turbo outlet temps would be 286*F. A 100% engine volumetric efficiency would roughly place you at 430 H.p. or 645 cfm. Your 50 trim can easily support that horsepower. Looking at spearco's own efficiency chart the efficiency of your #2-221 core would at best be 57% under these conditions. Doing the math gives me 171*F at the throttlebody. This is in line with a couple guys I've seen that actually measured their temps using the #2-221 core. Only you can determine whether this is acceptable or not. People were running 11's on stock intercoolers, so it is possible to go fast on an inefficient intercooler. Those people were running race gas though. Switching to a core with a 75% intercooler efficiency your throttlebody temps would be 135*F. That might be the difference between knocking and not knocking on pump gas. It would also make more power. You'll make 400 crank horsepower easy, you'll just run hotter doing it. Pretty straight forward.

 

[sweet97]

Well Gene time will tell. The way I saw it is that I bought it not exactly knwin what model I was buying but I ight as well try it as I can always go with another. i will cove the upper pipe wih header wrap to keep the temps te IC puts out were they are and will kave a coldair intake for sure. What if I ran enough boost for 375HP? That is still a lot of HP> Mark

 

[pianoman]

And I thought this thread had died.

 

[sweet97]

Dead? Yeah me too but turbohounds kicked it and it's alive! It's the johnny racecar IC thread that will not die. What did you end up with pianoman? mark

 

[1badtsi]

It's the johnny racecar IC thread that will not die.

<----takes a bow............. thank you, thank you

 

[pianoman]

Its a custom bar and plate by xessivmotorsports. It flows a whopping 1850cfm. It is able to flow so much due to a very efficient design. If you look closely at the actual fins, there are about 3x as many as with a standard intercooler, allowing it to cool the air much faster; 3x the cooling area helps a ton. It has much more cooling area, and a much more efficient design since it is not incredibly tall, but focuses the airflow to a more compact area (8x3.7") vs. many intercoolers out there. The drawback to the intercooler is that it will hinder airflow to the radiator/motor, granted im ripping out the ac condensor and all that plastic so its not a big deal anyhow, plus an upgraded fan, and I think i'll be good to go. The 1g kit is about $1,000.00 big ones so I think some DIY piping is inline. also Im thinking about getting rid of the 1gmas and going the GM route. I would like to stick the airfilter where the stock IC used to be right in that fender. I think it will be enough for the TO4B H-3 from bullseye I wanna get. So right now the whole things been put on hold due to some finance trouble, although im starting a new job soon so hopefully I can get the ball rolling. Yeah that jrc thread is getting up there.

 

[AL92]

I thought the 221 would do a better job of cooling things that what was posted for calculations.I am waiting to see how Sweet's works out I think but was leaning to a similar one.I have water/alco injection so figure that might let me get away with the 221 at 20psi street and 25 track.I don't really want to do this intercooler thing twice though either. I thought these really big ones hurt spool and caused more lag..true or false? I also think I read that some people can run like 20psi on stock intercooler with the benefit of water/alco injection.I think get the injection on the car and see how it works but the colder weather this time of year up here in canada can't hurt either..mother natures intercooler!

 

[pianoman]

Yes and no. There are other variables come into play also. If you get a decent IC to begin with I don't feel water injection would be nessary unless your overunning the IC you have. Or you just want that extra on the one you have. As far as running 20psi on the stocker, it depends on the turbo your running 20psi out of. Also if the stockers really dirty, and caked with oil on the inside then its gonna cool even less. I believe I have that problem right now, as when I purchased my car, it had a new pcv valve but oil was everywhere, so I think the stock pcv valve got clogged and then pushed a lot of oil back through the crankcase breather hose and then into the intake where it caked the intercooler really really bad. I can't run a whole lot of boost with out it starting to knock and im only on the 14b.

 

[amlos]

I have an Extreme PSI Race FMIC (Core Size: 28" Length X 10.5" Height X 3.62" Deep) and love it. I had to trim my bumper substantially for the IC but with a reciprocating saw, it took literally 50 minutes (as opposed to 3 days with a pneumatic cut off tool for my previous dsm IC install). I have a pte 50 trim and AEM EMS and the highest post IC temp I have ever seen is 10 degrees F over ambient at 23psi. Most of the time, it is only 1-4 degrees above ambient. I had to cut and re-orient some of the piping as some of it did not come in proper lengths. Still, this was a year and a half ago so I am sure that they have fixed this issue. Overall, in all my FI ventures, this IC has by far, the lowest inlet temps of any I have had. Of course, it is rather gigantic

 

[eclipsegsx9797]

how about victory performance super street kit, looks nice and seems like it will hold just about anything you challenge it with

i run agp right now and love it

 

[doug]

but they do not cool as well becuase of the short path the the air has.

Just to continue the clarification that turbohounds started about the top-to-bottom flow ICs, since the core is very wide (but shorter, of course) compared to side-to-side IC, the air charge "slows down" as a whole as it traverses the core, so it actually stays inside the core for the same amount of time as a narrower, longer side-to-side core.

A local DSM shop loves the top-to-bottom ICs, but does admit that fitment can sometimes be an issue; although pipe routing is actually easier since inlet and outlet can be on the same side.

On a different subject, Martin at The Speed Factor told me via e-mail a few weeks ago that ADFX is redesigning their core to be a bar and plate design instead of the extruded tube core that it is now. Has anybody else heard this, and if so, when it will be available?

 

[sweet97]

I guess top to bottom rolls off the tougue easier but they are bottom to top IC's. I have a Spearco bottom to top flowing 2-221. I had a dejon steet FMIC but itm did not do the job of cooling the 50 trims charge air. So far the 2-221 is holding it's own. It is only 16% bigger than the dejon, 388c.i. compared to the dejon's 325c.inches, however it has57% more cooling tubes. I got my filter placed outside the engine bay in the place the stock sidemount was. Starting with cooler makes the IC's job easier. I am also going to wrap the short route upper IC pipe with heat resistant header wrao to keep underhood away from the uper pipe. I did not want to hack my bumper as the car is in amazing condition and I want to keep it as stock as possible. I am expecting 20-22 psi on pump with the AGP 50 trim and the spearco which flows 1080CFM and is capable of supporting 760HP according to Spearco. Since i will not be pushing more than 750CFM and 375HP I expecting to be fine.
www.turboneticsinc.com lists the spearco's and what they have spec wise. Mark
PS: I emailed an "old timer from NABR who ran the 2-221 into the 10's! Bottom t top flow!

 

[pianoman]

Once agian I thought this thread died.

I always thought you ran it this way:

turbo>top end tank/ bottom end tank>TB. Is this backwords? Is it really turbo>bottom end tank/top end tank> TB?

I have set my goals higher and would like to hit 400whp. I've been looking into the holset HX-35. Theres a couple of reasons. First of all I heard their one of the nicer/better built turbos out there. Second, this is the stock turbo off of a dodge cummings disel, those things are good for at least 100k miles, and mind you thats boosting 30psi its whole life. But it can be pushed up to 40. So at 20psi not only am I pushing a good amout of air, its not hot since I am barely using the turbo. It is a 60-65lb/min turbo. Also you see 20psi just before or right at 4000rpm's, which is fine, turbo lag is not a huge problem for me since I normally drive out of boost anyhow.

I wanted to get a 2-221 because RRE, has an install page for it, and it notes that you can keep your 5mph bumper with slight hacking. I was about to not even worry about the 5mph bumper and just dump it and get a huge front mount, untill the other day when a lady in a rav-4 decided to back into me, while sitting in traffic and kept on trying to go back even while I was blairing my horn and revving the engine, just before and during her communist take over of my bumper. All I thought about was if i had a big front mount, and her smashing it. The other conclusion I came to was to hack the 5mph bumper, but then reinforce the inside of it with some type of small diameter piping or weld some barstock in there from side to side.

Agian with that turbo, its not even working very hard/hot to begin with, its just moving alot of air. And using a maf-t setup and running the filter outside of the engine should also help. Since this turbo has such a large compressor housing, and im tearing out the AC condensor, I will put a high flow fan inbetween the radiator and the IC where the AC condensor would of been and one on the passenger side of the radiator. What about fliping the end tanks oppsite of eachother on the 2-221? As far as the ADFX if its true that they are switching to a bar and plate design, I would like to run a slighter longer core, somthing maby 24inches to the 18 of the 2-221. But I wanna see some numbers out of it. I believe it would be enough.

Lawrence.

 

[sweet97]

Lawrence the compressed air from the turbo is routed to the BOTTOM tank of the IC. Besides the pressure from the turbo pushng the air, hot air rises. From the TOP tank the uper pipe runs to the TB.
I would reconsider the Holset. My 50 trim is capable of 400HP and Slow Boy has gotten 400HP from an EVO III.
A 50 trim would do you justice or you could go for the AGP RS52 which would get you to your goal easily for a much cheaper price and less supporting mods. I don't think I will sway your opinion but check out the 1/4 mile times listed in the index. It lists the turbo's them guys used to hit their times. count the number of Holsets. Heck a good 20G will put down 400whp!
You must have a 2g car as DSM link would be a necessity due to the huge injectors you will need to run. A GM MAF-Translator would do you no good. There is a Holset post going on around here.
Oh I suppose you could get a 2-221 set up as a side to side but then I believe cutting would be ivolved along with more difficult piping. Check with RRE for what you want and see what the can do for you. Keep in touch, Mark

 

[mavisky]

Lawrence the compressed air from the turbo is routed to the BOTTOM tank of the IC. Besides the pressure from the turbo pushng the air, hot air rises. From the TOP tank the uper pipe runs to the TB.

Not to mention the fact that since the turbo's outlet is usually pretty low it's easier to make it fit the lower endtank and then make the upper tank reach the tb. It'll probably save you a few inches of piping as well.

 

[doug]

Yeah, that routing makes perfect sense; I just never really thought about it. Thanks for the clarifications.

Also, sweet97, remember that the 1G version of DSMLink is available now.

 

[DSMnewbi]

Also, sweet97, remember that the 1G version of DSMLink is available now.

Where? I don't see it on their site.

 

[doug]

I don't really know the details, but I know it is out. On my version (V2.5), there is a checkbox at the bottom of the screen when you first load it that you select for the 1G version. And we do have one local 1G guy that already has his. You may have to e-mail and ask them; they don't update their web site too often...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151171

 

[defrag010]

I would reconsider the Holset. My 50 trim is capable of 400HP and Slow Boy has gotten 400HP from an EVO III.
A 50 trim would do you justice or you could go for the AGP RS52 which would get you to your goal easily for a much cheaper price and less supporting mods. I don't think I will sway your opinion but check out the 1/4 mile times listed in the index. It lists the turbo's them guys used to hit their times. count the number of Holsets. Heck a good 20G will put down 400whp!

I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but yanking a hx35 off of a dodge truck and buying the bullseye housing is Way cheaper than buying a 50 trim. The reason no one has any times on holset turbos is because they are new to the dsm market and no one (and by this, i mean very very few people)are running them yet.. Once they get popular, I forsee them putting down some awesome times..

 

[pianoman]

The diffrence between the Holset and the RS-49, is the amout of power it will make at lower boost. Running a RS-49/52 and making 400whp, I would think you would have to run it in excess of 24psi and the air coming out will be much hotter then the Holset making 400whp Bullseye power is the first one to have a turbine housing that will bolt up to a mitsubishi exhaust manifold. If I was going for 400 crank hp I would of opted for a RS-52. But making 400 wheel hp is going to take a little more. The maf-t is going to be zeroed out for the most part and will only needed for small adjaustments, as a reflashed eprom will take care of the rest. If the eprom still can't do the job then dsmlink will be used.

Not knock or knocking very little is what we are all going for running on pump gas. So if you are able to have cooler are coming out of the turbo it will help with that goal. Im not looking to max out a turbo. Slowboy racing did make 400hp out of the evo III, but I don't think it was on pump gas, and it was also on a 2.4L. It was maxed out. Did it do it? Yeah but does that mean I can repeat it? Prolly not, and more so not on pump gas. Dsm motorsport has gone 11.93 on the 14b and the stock sidemount. Let me see them do that on pump gas and after the have been driving around for an hour. Im not putting any of the shops down. Going 11.9 on the stock turbo and sidemount with no nitrous is awesome. But its not pratical for a street car.

No??

 

[kscott]

Lawrence the compressed air from the turbo is routed to the BOTTOM tank of the IC.

I've got the "hot side" of my 2-221 on top, although it uses long-route piping. This way, the most direct airflow is onto
the colder part of the core, which is the part that has more difficulty getting good heat transfer. Here's a picture of my
car with the fender off:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

As to keeping the bumper, I mounted the 2-221 tilted, so minimal cutting was required. I have about 7/8" of bumper
travel before it'd hit the intercooler. If I had to do it again, I'd make bigger cuts into the bumper than what I currently
have.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Also, if I had to do it again, I'd go for all-aluminum piping. The stainless is awfully heavy.

 

[sweet97]

Sounds like a piping nightmare getting the turbo outlet pipe to the upper inlet of the IC. Are your inlet amd outlet on the same side. I hope it orks well for you. Mark

 

[Slowboy]

And i quote,

Slowboy racing did make 400hp out of the evo III, but I don't think it was on pump gas, and it was also on a 2.4L. It was maxed out. Did it do it? Yeah but does that mean I can repeat it? Prolly not, and more so not on pump gas.

And i clairify,

400.3 wheel horsepower on an Evo III 16G, running 650 cc injectors, Sunoco 120 octane fuel, and a 2.3L with 7.5:1 compression. The turbo was probably 98% maxed out at this rating.

Just wanted to provide that.

Thanks,

Cragger