I want torque and Mid-Range Power...screw top end.

[diambo4life]

A t25 has NO top end... Also an NA v8 ( assuming it's an ls1 or one worth modding ) will pull on a properly supported 16g'd car with just an intake and a decent driver.... You ever wonder why our cars run 13.5 @ 98 ish and a TA runs a 13.5 @ 105 or more?

Traction buddy. That TA will have a 2.1-2.2 60ft and the DSM will have at least a 1.8x 60ft. That has nothing to do with top end. Get aggressive cams and a well flowing (ported) head and a DSM has the top end right there.
A properly supported 16G car will trap over 110mph easily btw (AWD or FWD). Hell a 14B car (like mine last year) would run the same as a stock LS1 at the top end.



If you don't intend on going more than a 16G sized turbo, stick with 550cc's. The correction won't be as drastic although if you have a chip to compensate for 650cc's, I would get them just to run lower IDCs. You will be able to run more boost on pump gas with bigger injectors but you will also have to lean out bigger injectors more on race gas.

To run an EVO 16G to the max I would suggest 650cc's.

 

[ShapeGSX]

650's for a 16g is rediculous.

My IDC was over 110% with 550s and my Evo III 16G.

I upgraded to 660s, and I'm back into tunable territory.

550s were just way too small, though.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Go with the 550's if you are using it as a daily driver and want a factory-like idle. 660's are overkill for a T28 or EVOIII 16G. The EVO III only came with 530cc injectors so why would you need 660's?

Because you might want to run more boost or flow more air than an Evo III did? Isn't that obvious?

What Evo III ever ran [email protected] in the 1/4?

 

[Zenja]

Arguments about injector sizes between 550 and 650 always come up. The question is why in the world would you not take 650s? 550s aren't even much bigger than stock and 650s cost insignificantly more than 550s. It's just a way better idea to go with 650s. 550s will let you have a nice mild setup while 650s will allow you to maximize something like a 16g or work pretty decent with a 20g or 50trim. Times have changed. 550s are for 14bs - anything bigger should be used with a bigger injector, and upgrading to 550s seems like a big waste unless you really don't plan on going past a 14b or a mild 16g.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

A t25 has NO top end... Also an NA v8 ( assuming it's an ls1 or one worth modding ) will pull on a properly supported 16g'd car with just an intake and a decent driver.... You ever wonder why our cars run 13.5 @ 98 ish and a TA runs a 13.5 @ 105 or more?

I hope your kidding, I trapped at 100mph with a 16g at around 12-13psi. and I have no problem putting away a t/a on the highway with my 16g at 15psi. When I was BONE STOCK no free mods at all on 205 all seasons I ran 14.9@95mph.
Andrew

 

[anconover]

My friend did 13.2@104 on a 14b, pump gas with a crap tune (supporting mods of coarse). Like diambo4life said, its the 60ft thats the cause for the trap speeds.

 

[GPTourer]

Go with the 550's if you are using it as a daily driver and want a factory-like idle. 660's are overkill for a T28 or EVOIII 16G. The EVO III only came with 530cc injectors so why would you need 660's? I use 660's but I have an FPgreen.

Because you might want to run more boost or flow more air than an Evo III did? Isn't that obvious?

What Evo III ever ran [email protected] in the 1/4?

Yeah, exactly. I think the Evo III (the car, not the turbo) was rated at like 256hp AT THE CRANK from the factory. 530cc injectors might have been decent head room back in the mid 90's when the car came out - but I think most of us want more then that.

 

[1fast97gsx]

I hope your kidding, I trapped at 100mph with a 16g at around 12-13psi. and I have no problem putting away a t/a on the highway with my 16g at 15psi. When I was BONE STOCK no free mods at all on 205 all seasons I ran 14.9@95mph.
Andrew

you must be referring to a 305 or a crap tuned 350? An ls1 will have no problem walking away from you on the highway at those boost levels. Maybe he was just playing with you? An LT1 ( stock ) I cdan see you hanging with though the way you are saying...

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

you must be referring to a 305 or a crap tuned 350? An ls1 will have no problem walking away from you on the highway at those boost levels. Maybe he was just playing with you? An LT1 ( stock ) I cdan see you hanging with though the way you are saying...

with the mods in my profile I "hung" with a 911 turbo at 15psi creeping to 17psi, and no do not insult my inteligence and say it must be a 305 or "shit tuned"350. a 305 can be beaten in a sohc civic and a 350 tuned can easily be whollped with a probe gt. Its called driver skill, I dont need as much power to beat a car then lets say...you.

 

[leakyfaucet]

with the mods in my profile I "hung" with a 911 turbo at 15psi creeping to 17psi, and no do not insult my inteligence and say it must be a 305 or "shit tuned"350. a 305 can be beaten in a sohc civic and a 350 tuned can easily be whollped with a probe gt. Its called driver skill, I dont need as much power to beat a car then lets say...you.

I have lost all respect for you.

 

[heavyD]

Because you might want to run more boost or flow more air than an Evo III did? Isn't that obvious?

What Evo III ever ran [email protected] in the 1/4?

If you look at the original post the fella didn't make any statements regarding 11.82 ets. He wanted the car to be a daily driver. If he wants sub 12 sec times he should be looking at a 50 trim and not an EVO III or T28 turbo. I know some people can get times like that out of 16G's but they are the minority not the majority.

Yes this isn't the 90"s anymore but I think that the content of O2 in the air is still the same now as it was then and gasoline is the same also. Maybe the only thing that has changed is the overcompensating for poor tuning now.

 

[ShapeGSX]

If you look at the original post the fella didn't make any statements regarding 11.82 ets. He wanted the car to be a daily driver. If he wants sub 12 sec times he should be looking at a 50 trim and not an EVO III or T28 turbo. I know some people can get times like that out of 16G's but they are the minority not the majority.

Yes this isn't the 90"s anymore but I think that the content of O2 in the air is still the same now as it was then and gasoline is the same also. Maybe the only thing that has changed is the overcompensating for poor tuning now.

You can run 20psi out of an Evo III 16G on pump gas. I do it all the time without any knock. I'm certain that the Lancer Evo III did not run that much boost. At that boost level, on pump gas, my car was running out of fuel with 550cc/min injectors. Do you want to see datalogs of the injector duty cycles that are over 100%?

20psi on an Evo III 16G gives a monstrous mid-range torque hit. Let it spike up a little more in the mid range, and it gets even better. If he wants that, then 550s are just too small, period. An Evo III 16G is not the same as a small or big 16. It flows a lot more air. My small 16G was fine with 550s. My Evo III was NOT!

Sure, I'm overcompensating for poor tuning. Give me a break. The only thing that has changed is visibility and tuning techniques. In the 90s, people didn't realize that you could run so much boost on pump gas because they were still tuning using AFCs. When they compensated for the larger injectors, their timing advance also increased, which caused knock. In the late 90s, it was commonly thought that you couldn't run more than 16 or 17psi on pump gas, period. Now people are running 26psi, and running a little richer A:F ratio (with those overcompensated injectors) and a little less timing advance (because they can tune them seperately), and belting out 400 to 500hp on pump gas. It is called progress, not poor tuning.

 

[heavyD]

You can run 20psi out of an Evo III 16G on pump gas. I do it all the time without any knock. I'm certain that the Lancer Evo III did not run that much boost. At that boost level, on pump gas, my car was running out of fuel with 550cc/min injectors. Do you want to see datalogs of the injector duty cycles that are over 100%?

20psi on an Evo III 16G gives a monstrous mid-range torque hit. Let it spike up a little more in the mid range, and it gets even better. If he wants that, then 550s are just too small, period. An Evo III 16G is not the same as a small or big 16. It flows a lot more air. My small 16G was fine with 550s. My Evo III was NOT!

Sure, I'm overcompensating for poor tuning. Give me a break. The only thing that has changed is visibility and tuning techniques. In the 90s, people didn't realize that you could run so much boost on pump gas because they were still tuning using AFCs. When they compensated for the larger injectors, their timing advance also increased, which caused knock. In the late 90s, it was commonly thought that you couldn't run more than 16 or 17psi on pump gas, period. Now people are running 26psi, and running a little richer A:F ratio (with those overcompensated injectors) and a little less timing advance (because they can tune them seperately), and belting out 400 to 500hp on pump gas. It is called progress, not poor tuning.

400 - 500 hp & 26 psi on pump gas? Not bloody likey with a 16G or T28. Those numbers are attained with garret/mitsu hybrid turbos which do require 660's or higher. Look at the original post!!!!!!!! He was looking for good midrange punch, not to max out a little turbo to get under 12's. If he doesn't have or plan to get a FMIC he can't go over 18 psi anyway in which 550's will be more than adequate.

 

[ShapeGSX]

400 - 500 hp & 26 psi on pump gas? Not bloody likey with a 16G or T28. Those numbers are attained with garret/mitsu hybrid turbos which do require 660's or higher. Look at the original post!!!!!!!! He was looking for good midrange punch, not to max out a little turbo to get under 12's. If he doesn't have or plan to get a FMIC he can't go over 18 psi anyway in which 550's will be more than adequate.

Wow you are missing the point. That last paragraph was to show what has changed in DSMs since the 90s, since YOU brought it up! I wasn't saying he was going to get 400hp out of his car.

550s and 660s cost about the same. Trust me, get 660s. 18psi could be pushing it if you ever decide to get cams (which also increase midrange punch, btw...). 20psi will definitely be too much for 550s, and the injectors will just be wide open all the time at WOT in the upper RPMs, giving the ECU no control over fuel delivery. If you ever run too much boost by mistake, the 660s will supply enough fuel to hopefully keep your engine alive. 660s flow enough fuel to keep the IDC below 100% at any boost level any 16G can throw out.

I don't understand why people are so dead set against using 660s with a 16G. WTF?

 

[MattnGsx]

I don't understand why people are so dead set against using 660s with a 16G. WTF?

Its for when we go to a t04e 60 trim :laugh: i don't have to buy new injectors.

 

[GPTourer]

I don't understand why people are so dead set against using 660s with a 16G. WTF?

Its usually followed up with some crotchety old granpda like story like "Back in my day, we didn't have 660s and 50 trims, we had 550's that we salvaged out of FD's and Supras and the 20G was the end all be all - and we liked it! and we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to Norwalk and..."

What? Was it like a five hundred dollar gap between 550's and 660's back in the 90's? Who cares if they are cheaper now, that's called progress. like from VPC, to AFC, to DSMlink. Its all good.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I got $50 that says I can buy my 1680cc injectors cheaper than your 550's or 660's. If it's the same price, and you can control them, GET THE BIGGER INJECTORS. Jesus christ it isn't rocket science. I've idled 750's and 880's on just an AFC/2g MAF, it can be done, and it's not hard.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Exactly. I actually wanted 720s when I got my 660s, but a deal on the 660s came up that I couldn't refuse.

 

[High PSI]

If he doesn't have or plan to get a FMIC he can't go over 18 psi anyway in which 550's will be more than adequate.

I am planning on getting a FMIC....the reason I have the supra SMIC right now is because I was getting heat soak like crazy on the stock side mount and a good deal came up on the supra intercooler. I'll be getting a FMIC once I know what turbo I'll be going with.

 

[High PSI]

I got $50 that says I can buy my 1680cc injectors cheaper than your 550's or 660's. If it's the same price, and you can control them, GET THE BIGGER INJECTORS. Jesus christ it isn't rocket science. I've idled 750's and 880's on just an AFC/2g MAF, it can be done, and it's not hard.

While the 550's are cheaper, price isn't an issue. What I was concerned about is drivability. Controlling the injectors at WOT and having big ass injectors try to meter small amounts of fuel when you're just driving around town are two completely different things. IF I'm not going to be able to outflow 550's with a properly tuned EVO III 16g or Big T28, then there's no point of going bigger just becuase the bigger injectors are pretty much the same price....that's was my concern.

If I'll outflow 550's with a properly tuned EVO III or a Big T28 flowing as much as they can flow with a FMIC, I'll get the 660's.

As far as not being able to make decent power with 550's and a Big T28, check this out:

http://www.wincom.net/trog/newimages/dyno3.jpg

That's off the guys website who's won Auto-x nationals in his Big T28 powered AWD 2G. He's only running RC 550's...which is what was making me think that it could be enough for me too.


Not to open up another can of worms, but how would 550's with higher fuel pressure compare to 660's as far as performance, drivability, and reliability are concerned?

 

[1fast97gsx]

I got $50 that says I can buy my 1680cc injectors cheaper than your 550's or 660's. If it's the same price, and you can control them, GET THE BIGGER INJECTORS. Jesus christ it isn't rocket science. I've idled 750's and 880's on just an AFC/2g MAF, it can be done, and it's not hard.

yea I ran 780s on a 2g maf no problems .... safc was at -50 at 1 point so I wouldn't go any bigger than that with an safc unless you are making crazy power.

 

[ShapeGSX]

http://www.wincom.net/trog/newimages/dyno3.jpg

That's off the guys website who's won Auto-x nationals in his Big T28 powered AWD 2G. He's only running RC 550's...which is what was making me think that it could be enough for me too.

Not to open up another can of worms, but how would 550's with higher fuel pressure compare to 660's as far as performance, drivability, and reliability are concerned?

Higher fuel pressure means that you need a stronger fuel pump to keep up pressure at high flow.

And not to piss on Dennis's accomplishment, but I'm probably making another 50hp on top of that with the Evo III 16G to run 118mph in the 1/4 in my 3315lb car. I suppose I'll find out if I dyno this winter. I'm pretty sure he runs race gas when he races, and so do I.

Listen, you are in CT, and I'm in Worcester, MA. If you want a ride in my Evo III 16G car, let me know. Drive on up here. I think you will be hooked the moment you feel the torque this thing puts out at just 3300RPM.

 

[lowridin2g]

I want torque and Mid-Range Power...screw top end.

turbo cars are all about top end...................

 

[High PSI]

Higher fuel pressure means that you need a stronger fuel pump to keep up pressure at high flow.

And not to piss on Dennis's accomplishment, but I'm probably making another 50hp on top of that with the Evo III 16G to run 118mph in the 1/4 in my 3315lb car. I suppose I'll find out if I dyno this winter. I'm pretty sure he runs race gas when he races, and so do I.

Listen, you are in CT, and I'm in Worcester, MA. If you want a ride in my Evo III 16G car, let me know. Drive on up here. I think you will be hooked the moment you feel the torque this thing puts out at just 3300RPM.

Yeah, I've already got a re-wired Walbro 190HP, so the fuel pressure should be taken care of.

As far as that ride, I might have to take you up on that as soon as I get a weekend free from working on my car. I'd love to feel what the Evo III 16G felt like. My ported 14B is laggy as hell compared to what the T25 was like. I just don't want to get a bigger turbo and move to an even laggier turbo as opposed to one that spools more like the T25. I've got to work the tranny HARD to keep revs high so that I've got power pulling out of those tight corners.

 

[thekellbeast]

I want torque and Mid-Range Power...screw top end.

turbo cars are all about top end...................

Try saying that about a deisel.