Home Alignment

[tsunari]

Ok . . . so I already have a lifetime alignment with Firestones across the nation, but for some reason NONE of them know how to properly adjust my rear Ingalls camber kit . . . some are even under the impression that one of the cams adjusts camber and the other adjusts toe!?!

*sigh*

So I'm looking to adjust my camber @ home, then take it in to have the toe done- I will have control & patience to make sure the camber is done correctly . . . they can easily set the toe- everyone is happy.

What I'm wondering is has anyone tried one of these caster/camber gauges and know if they work well (if at all?)

SummitRacing # REB-320-8920

Perhaps a bit on the 'expensive' side for some people. . . but for me it'll be worth it to be able to play with my camber whenever I need/want. . . maybe one day I'll actually do my own toe settings

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Ok . . . so I already have a lifetime alignment with Firestones across the nation, but for some reason NONE of them know how to properly adjust my rear Ingalls camber kit . . . some are even under the impression that one of the cams adjusts camber and the other adjusts toe!?!

*sigh*

So I'm looking to adjust my camber @ home, then take it in to have the toe done- I will have control & patience to make sure the camber is done correctly . . . they can easily set the toe- everyone is happy.

What I'm wondering is has anyone tried one of these caster/camber gauges and know if they work well (if at all?)

SummitRacing # REB-320-8920

Perhaps a bit on the 'expensive' side for some people. . . but for me it'll be worth it to be able to play with my camber whenever I need/want. . . maybe one day I'll actually do my own toe settings

I just did an alingment yesterday wiht all professional equiptment and its pretty indepth. Also even if you get that gauge when ever you adjust your camber the toe will then be screw up. I would set the camber to where you think it looks good, then have them print you out the specs if its good have the toe done and be on your way if not add or remost what ever you think you need to get it closer to where you want it. I set my front at spec toe and 1.5 degrees front camber for alittle better handling. Im doing the rear on thursday.

 

[tsunari]

I just did an alingment yesterday wiht all professional equiptment and its pretty indepth. Also even if you get that gauge when ever you adjust your camber the toe will then be screw up. I would set the camber to where you think it looks good, then have them print you out the specs if its good have the toe done and be on your way if not add or remost what ever you think you need to get it closer to where you want it. I set my front at spec toe and 1.5 degrees front camber for alittle better handling. Im doing the rear on thursday.

Yeah, that's pretty much what i wanna do is set my own camber, then take it down the road so they can both double-check the camber settings and also set the toe while they're at it.
Just didn't want to spend the money on a tool that wont work. . . but the race guys set their own shit- so SOMETHING has gotta work.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Yeah, that's pretty much what i wanna do is set my own camber, then take it down the road so they can both double-check the camber settings and also set the toe while they're at it.
Just didn't want to spend the money on a tool that wont work. . . but the race guys set their own shit- so SOMETHING has gotta work.

Heres what I was thinking. Say you did buy the expensive camber setting tool and set your camber. Then take it to have the toe alinged. If you decide to hit the track that weekend and want more negative camber you can just adjust both sides, BUT when you do that you also mess with toe. Its all suspension geometry, you cant move one with out messing with the other. So In the end it would be cheaper to just gamble on the camber one or two times and get it right then set the toe and be done with it. Im just trying to help out, go ahead and do what you think is right.

 

[SAKONE]

Actually the price is fine. Why that certain model? Did you try looking at other models? How often do you plan to change your camber settings? Maybe I should buy one, because the one I want is $300 retail.

Ever think about just bringing your car to a alignment place that specializes or work on track/race cars instead of a place like firestone? I don't pay a lot for a alignment where I'm at, and they also do corner weighting.

 

[tsunari]

Actually the price is fine. Why that certain model? Did you try looking at other models? How often do you plan to change your camber settings? Maybe I should buy one, because the one I want is $300 retail.

Ever think about just bringing your car to a alignment place that specializes or work on track/race cars instead of a place like firestone? I don't pay a lot for a alignment where I'm at, and they also do corner weighting.

I'd love to find a place that does corner weighting, and the reason I go to firestone is 3 years ago I bought their lifetime alignment . . . so if I end up doing my own camber, I could change it as often as I want. Change it on a friday for a weekend event. . . change it back sunday for the weeks drive to/from work.

The ppl @ firestone might not like me after a while, but oh-well. . . there's no stipulation as to how often I can/can't get it aligned

Nah,- I'm not dead-set on that particular model. . . which one were you looking at?

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

I'd love to find a place that does corner weighting, and the reason I go to firestone is 3 years ago I bought their lifetime alignment . . . so if I end up doing my own camber, I could change it as often as I want. Change it on a friday for a weekend event. . . change it back sunday for the weeks drive to/from work.

The ppl @ firestone might not like me after a while, but oh-well. . . there's no stipulation as to how often I can/can't get it aligned

Nah,- I'm not dead-set on that particular model. . . which one were you looking at?

I must have missed the lifetime thing. You sure theres no hidden amounts for everything ? Sounds too good to be true , but if it is then go for it just make sure you watch them do it and if they test drive then you go with them. Good Luck man. All this alingment talk gets me excited for tomarrow Im finishing my car uo and back on the road.

 

[tsunari]

I must have missed the lifetime thing. You sure theres no hidden amounts for everything ? Sounds too good to be true , but if it is then go for it just make sure you watch them do it and if they test drive then you go with them. Good Luck man. All this alingment talk gets me excited for tomarrow Im finishing my car uo and back on the road.

heheh- yup, no hidden fees, etc . . . it actually pays for itself after like the 3rd alignment and I most definitely am always right there when they do the alignment- I even drive the car up onto the rack and sit in the driver's seat so I'm at full race weight when I get the settings aligned. A bit anal?? perhaps. . . but it's my damned car . . . heheh

The trick is finding a decent firestone that arent bastards towards 'lowered' cars . . . I went to three different ones in the area before I found one that was cool

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

heheh- yup, no hidden fees, etc . . . it actually pays for itself after like the 3rd alignment and I most definitely am always right there when they do the alignment- I even drive the car up onto the rack and sit in the driver's seat so I'm at full race weight when I get the settings aligned. A bit anal?? perhaps. . . but it's my damned car . . . heheh

The trick is finding a decent firestone that arent bastards towards 'lowered' cars . . . I went to three different ones in the area before I found one that was cool

Good deal sounds like your all set then, case closed . Get that camber tool

 

[tsunari]

Yeah, I'm just not too sure how it attaches to the wheel/hub . . . hope I dont have to get something like this to go with it:

http://www.intercompracing.com/detail.cfm?ItemID=101

 

[SAKONE]

That's good that they work with your body weight when they align the car, some shops just use sand bags. Well I know racers wholesale has some, but I know if you look online their is a few I just forgot/can't find the links. The one I was looking at was on TEIN's web page.

Anyways, since you can go back whenever it's like your own personal shop.....sorta.

Good luck.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Yeah, I'm just not too sure how it attaches to the wheel/hub . . . hope I dont have to get something like this to go with it:

http://www.intercompracing.com/detail.cfm?ItemID=101

Thats exactly what I had on my car tuesday night. they clamp to your rims lip ( USE TAPE ) it has an air bubble that is obviously made to cambers specifications here and you adjust accordingly Theres more to it than that like setting the car up evenly and all that, but mainly its that on your wheels and an air bubble reading. I( have the picture on my phone Ill see if they gave me a cable with it freaking expensive....they better have haha.

 

[99redgst]

I just did an alingment yesterday wiht all professional equiptment and its pretty indepth. Also even if you get that gauge when ever you adjust your camber the toe will then be screw up. I would set the camber to where you think it looks good, then have them print you out the specs if its good have the toe done and be on your way if not add or remost what ever you think you need to get it closer to where you want it. I set my front at spec toe and 1.5 degrees front camber for alittle better handling. Im doing the rear on thursday.

You do realize that any time you adjust the rear alignment it will change the front. You should have done the rear, then the front. The camber won't change but the toe will, just be prepared to make more adjustments to the front again.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

You do realize that any time you adjust the rear alignment it will change the front. You should have done the rear, then the front. The camber won't change but the toe will, just be prepared to make more adjustments to the front again.

Explain this please , its no problem doing the front again it went quick, but what happens. I dont see how it could change.

 

[99redgst]

Explain this please , its no problem doing the front again it went quick, but what happens. I dont see how it could change.

Its because the the fronts are lined up with the rears. The rears are the starting point for all the angles read. If you change the angle of the rear tire it it affects the front angles. Its kind of hard to explain without getting pretty in depth with alignment angles and readings. However you will see it for yourself when you do it, if you only have to adjust the toe a small amout like 0.10 you may not have to adjust the front. If you move the rear any signifigant amount the fronts will require readjustment. Any alignmemt shop will always do rears first. I worked at a Just Tires as an alignment tech for a year and a half and now work at a dealership so I have done my fair share of alignments. If you really want me to explain this further I can do so but maybe tommorrow because its getting late and have to work early.

 

[tsunari]

Explain this please , its no problem doing the front again it went quick, but what happens. I dont see how it could change.

What he was referring to was a cars 'thrust angle'. . .

"Thrust Angle

The thrust angle is an imaginary line drawn perpendicular to the rear axle's centerline. It compares the direction that the rear axle is aimed with the centerline of the vehicle. It also confirms if the rear axle is parallel to its front axle and that the wheelbase on both sides of the vehicle is the same.

If the thrust angle is not correct on a vehicle with a solid rear axle, it often requires a trip to the frame straightening shop to correctly reposition the rear axle.

A vehicle with independent rear axles may have incorrect toe-in or toe-out on both sides of the axle, or may have toe-in on one side and toe-out on the other. The suspension on each side of the vehicle must be adjusted individually until it has reached the appropriate toe setting for its side of the vehicle.

An incorrect thrust angle is often caused by an out-of-position axle or incorrect toe settings. So in addition to the handling quirks that are the result of incorrect toe settings, thrust angles can also cause the vehicle to handle differently when turning one direction vs. the other." -- Tire Rack

The following link has a bunch of other info & diagrams to help explain:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4&currentpage=40

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Well that kidn of sucks, I know the toe out is about .44 I believe which is about an 1/8 on each side off if im not mistaken. We have a drive over toe machine also and Ill hit that acouple times after the rear is complete to see how drastic the change was. Here's the picture I email'd to my self from my phone.

 

[tsunari]

So I'm taking it that pretty much NO one on here does their own alignments . . . that or those who do aren't reading this thread . . .

 

[jtmcinder]

I tried a string alignment. I spent an entire afternoon on it. I wasn't even close to correct when I checked it on a real machine. So I went back to using the real machine at a local shop when they weren't busy. I have my steering arms marked for zero toe and for about a quarter out, and I switch them back and forth at events while swapping tires. I plan to verify the marks at the start of the season.

Lots of autocrossers seem to have great success with camber/caster gizmos, four jacktands, a string. I'm just not one of them. So, between this and the goofy idea that rear alignment alters front alignment, I avoided this thread until now.

- Jtoby

 

[wret]

So I'm taking it that pretty much NO one on here does their own alignments . . . that or those who do aren't reading this thread . . .

I do. I posted a thread a while back on checking alignment at home. If your main concern is camber, there is a device available for about $10 from Harbor Freight or ebay that also is in quarter degree increments.

I don't know if I'm at the point yet where I would encourage the average joe to do their alignments at home but I am comfortable with it. When you tweak your suspension as often as I do it becomes almost a necessity.

 

[tsunari]

I tried a string alignment. I spent an entire afternoon on it. I wasn't even close to correct when I checked it on a real machine. So I went back to using the real machine at a local shop when they weren't busy. I have my steering arms marked for zero toe and for about a quarter out, and I switch them back and forth at events while swapping tires. I plan to verify the marks at the start of the season.

Ok, that's another thing that I dont quite understand (or perhaps am just being dumb) . . . how does one convert from degrees to inches? I've been so shops that measure toe in inches, and others that do it in degrees . . .

Lots of autocrossers seem to have great success with camber/caster gizmos, four jacktands, a string. I'm just not one of them. So, between this and the goofy idea that rear alignment alters front alignment, I avoided this thread until now.

Yeah, I kinda had a feeling you were lurking around somewhere . . . Thanks for chiming in!

I do. I posted a thread a while back on checking alignment at home. If your main concern is camber, there is a device available for about $10 from Harbor Freight or ebay that also is in quarter degree increments.

I don't know if I'm at the point yet where I would encourage the average joe to do their alignments at home but I am comfortable with it. When you tweak your suspension as often as I do it becomes almost a necessity.

Yeah, I've seen pix of that bubble level that HF has . . . maybe I'll swing by today and see if the local one has it in stock. The only question I really have about it is how does it attach to the wheel? Just a big magnet that sticks to the spindle nut? or do I have to get/make something like this?

http://www.intercompracing.com/detail.cfm?ItemID=101

Also . . . ever check to see how accurate your self-done alignments are?

This is definitely something I want to do seeing as I'm almost ALWAYS tweaking something on the car to make it handle/perform better. . .

[rant]
I was almost insulted a bit a few years back while talking to John @ RRE . . . he was trying to sell me on the JICs over Koni/GCs by pretty much telling me I can either drive the car and have them setup the suspension (JICs) or struggle setting up my own suspension (KONI/GCs) and not be as good of a driver . . . . *pbth* like I can't be a good driver AND tune my own stuff? If she's not handling like I need, I want the knowledge to be able to re-tune the suspension to do what I want . . . not take it to someone and try to relate to them what it's doing and what I want it to do . . . I'd much rather fail 99 times before succeeding that 1, than take it to someone and hope for the best[/rant]

 

[jtmcinder]

Most machines assume a 24" or 25" diameter when converting from inches to degrees (or v.v.). If it's a big deal to you, ask again, and I'll search my notes. After that, it's a simple trig function.

I have not had a chance to test my ability to use the machines against anyone else's because I am better at it than any of the guys who work at the shop! I can tell you which of them is any good, tee hee, but not v.v. The one thing I know is that I stink at string aligning. I was really psyched about it, bought special string, etc, etc, and was still off by an eighth.

- Jtoby

ps. if you feel like you were almost insulted by John M., then you weren't paying close enough attention. I am quite sure that he meant to insult you. He's brilliant, but a bit of a ####.

 

[Highwayrun]

I'd just take it to a better place, or carry in the instructions from Ingalls.

If you really want to adjust the camber yourself, then you're probably better off eyeballing the toe-setting yourself, before driving the car anywhere, at any speed.

I found the toe to change a lot with the camber, so much so that it affected handling tremendously, and it wore the tires extraordinarily fast. (I did about one year of tire damage in one day.)

**********
For what it's worth, I eyeballed my front toe when I installed my SPC front control arms, and wasn't too far off when it was measured on an alignment machine.

 

[wret]

. . . ever check to see how accurate your self-done alignments are?

Once, at the time I was only messing around with toe but I came out pretty near dead on, but the lack of validation is the main reason I don't push it.

The thread is here. Since that post I've added a couple turn plates and a target attached to the opposite wheel to my set up.

I would just use something to bridge the wheel to stick the bubble device onto. If you have an extremely level surface to park on, you can get a pretty good camber estimate with a carpenters square.

 

[tsunari]

Most machines assume a 24" or 25" diameter when converting from inches to degrees (or v.v.). If it's a big deal to you, ask again, and I'll search my notes. After that, it's a simple trig function.

I have not had a chance to test my ability to use the machines against anyone else's because I am better at it than any of the guys who work at the shop! I can tell you which of them is any good, tee hee, but not v.v. The one thing I know is that I stink at string aligning. I was really psyched about it, bought special string, etc, etc, and was still off by an eighth.

- Jtoby

ps. if you feel like you were almost insulted by John M., then you weren't paying close enough attention. I am quite sure that he meant to insult you. He's brilliant, but a bit of a ####.

Yeah, I haven't had the desire to try out the string alignment just yet . . . maybe one day

As for John M. . . . yeah, I dont remember exactly what was said, but obviously it rubbed me the wrong way enough that 2+ years later I still remember it . . . and have yet to converse with him again (maybe one reason why I haven't jumped on the phone and ordered coax top hats yet . . .)

I'd just take it to a better place, or carry in the instructions from Ingalls.

heheh . . . I've tried that before, they usually dont even LOOK at the instructions