Has anyone heard of a SMALLER aftermarket alternator pulley?

[Rice Over Wheat]

I have a 165A Alterstart alternator that is almost new. I also have issues with so much draw on my optima yellow top from so many aftermarket parts and custom cooling system that my voltage is unstable. I can't use my a/c without the a/c belt sapping the speed of my alternator pulley's revolutions at any given rpm -- it's ridiculous. Many domestic modders upgrade their alternator pulleys to a smaller one in order to get more revolutions at the same rpm to increase the alt's output at low rpms. That's exactly what I need to do. Problem is, I've never heard of DSMers doing this nor can I find the part on the major vendors. Has anyone heard of a smaller aftermarket alt pulley?

 

[DGajre777]

Unorthodox Racing has one... here is the kit - http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17451&cat=600&page=1.

or

Alternator Pulleys (Ultra A)
Code: 010930602
Price: $66.92

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http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/

Some info from their site...

Underdriving/underdrive is slowing the speed of the accessories, or the driven component, from their original factory speed. Underdriving can be done in two ways. First is by increasing the diameter of the accessory pulley/s. The problem with this method is it increases the size of the accessory pulley/s which increases their weight. Weight reduction is the most important key to increasing engine performance and response. This method also eliminates the ability to underdrive the a/c, which is a tremendous robber of horsepower. The second, which we use, is reducing the diameter of the crank pulley. This allows us to achieve the best ratio of underdriving, and most importantly maximizes the reduction of weight on the crankshaft. This reduction in weight reduces the moment of inertia allowing your engine to respond faster to throttle inputs and perform better at all RPM's. This method also allows underdriving of the a/c we can maximize the performance of our kits by not leaving any accessories to rob precious horsepower from your engine.

The third type are our pulley sets, which are available in two (2) versions. The first version is the underdrive sets in standard belt layout (Ultra SS). These sets include the underdrive crank pulley (Ultra S) and the accessory pulleys (Ultra A) for the air pump, alternator, idler, power steering and water pump, depending on your application. There is no additional underdrive with these sets, they are the same amount as with our crank pulleys (Ultra S). The a/c is still driven from the crank pulley in this version so don't think it has to be removed or can't be used. The second version are our stock diameter sets, also standrad belt layout (Ultra SSc). They include the stock diameter crank pulley and the accessory pulleys (Ultra A) for the air pump, alternator, idler, power steering and water pump, depending on your application. This version is designed to maintain alternator output at stock levels for car owners with big stereos (over 600 watts) or for audio competitions where system voltage must maintain specified levels (see your sanctioning body's rules). For cars with superchargers it maintains the original level of boost from the aftermarket supercharger kit.

 

[jongreene]

Any feedback on these? Any noticeable difference?

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Dee, you are the MAN! You probably just solved all my electronic issues as I am ordering that bad boy pronto. You likely also solved all these peoples' problems here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=151227254#post151227254

Oh and just noticed you're a wiseman now, grats.

Btw...their site shows the following weight savings [2G turbos]:

Stock alt pulley = 5.8 oz. Theirs: 2.4
Stock power steering pulley = 14.2 oz. Theirs: 6.2
Stock water pump pulley = 1 lb 3.4 oz. Theirs: 12 oz
Stock crank pulley = 4 lb 10.4 oz. Theirs: 1 lb 1.8 oz.

These are tremendous gains when you consider their revolutions relative to engine rpm! I just found my latest upgrades, thanks man!

 

[talon187]

If my ac is totally taken out would there be a point for me to buy this pully?

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

If my ac is totally taken out would there be a point for me to buy this pully?

On their site they say they offer two types of setups. Normal belt setup for people with all accessories, and a setup for people who removed the a/c...which offers the most weight savings up to 90% over stock.

They have dyno results on their site and state the following:

3) "How do Unorthodox Racing pulleys give me more power?"

Weight reduction is how we are able to increase Horsepower! Each pound of weight removed from the crankshaft is worth approximately 2.7HP and the gains jump even more dramatically with forced induction, nitrous, VTEC and increased RPM's. Only 15-20% of the gains from our pulleys come from underdriving. The diameter of each of our crank pulleys is reduced up to 20%. We tailor the exact amount of underdrive to each vehicle based on factory specified accessory performance. We fully maintain all accessory output minimums like air conditioning efficiency, power steering feel, and voltage (minimum allowable voltage 12v) even at idle with everything electrical on in the car. There are no adverse effects from using any of our pulley versions. Bolt them on and forget about them, then just follow your vehicles normal maintenance schedule.

Therefore by their calculations, if you change out the crank, water pump, alt, and ps pulleys you'd save 4.2 lbs. That is theoretically 11.34 hp at the crank, more with forced induction and high rpms.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Your killing me Kevin! Call me foo...

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Your killing me Kevin! Call me foo...

I've just been informed that getting their crank pulley wouldn't be good on a dsm. I'll stick with stock for that, but all the rest is a go!

 

[DGajre777]

I've just been informed that getting their crank pulley wouldn't be good on a dsm. I'll stick with stock for that, but all the rest is a go!

Yeah don't get their crank pulley. If you are looking for a lightweight crank pulley get one from Fluidampr that makes one with a dampener for DSMs or stick with an OEM crank pulley/harmonic balancer. - http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=5809&cat=4526&page=1

Glad to be of help.

 

[nc90awd]

Here is a link for some high output alternators. They dont currentky make one for a dsm but they can custom build you an alternator. Maybe if we got a few people to go in we could convince then to mass produce them.
http://www.mean-green.com/

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Yeah don't get their crank pulley. If you are looking for a lightweight crank pulley get one from Fluidampr that makes one with a dampener for DSMs or stick with an OEM crank pulley/harmonic balancer. - http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=5809&cat=4526&page=1

Hm, that fluidampr crank pully is half a pound heavier than stock. I think I'm going to go with a much cheaper and lighter oem one. I wonder why anyone "upgrades" to that if the oem one is typically good for 80k to 100k miles?

 

[nc90awd]

The fuidampr is a very good investment. Its good for high revving dsms and motors with the balance shafts removed. It smooths out vibrations in the motor that can hurt the bottom end during high rpms. I have a fluidampr and I definatly noticed a difference.

 

[DGajre777]

Hm, that fluidampr crank pully is half a pound heavier than stock. I think I'm going to go with a much cheaper and lighter oem one. I wonder why anyone "upgrades" to that if the oem one is typically good for 80k to 100k miles?

Interesting... I always thought the fluidampr pulley was lighter than stock... I stand corrected.

 

[romeen]

if you change out the crank, water pump, alt, and ps pulleys you'd save 4.2 lbs. That is theoretically 11.34 hp at the crank, more with forced induction and high rpms.

I have the Unorthodox light weight pulleys for the alt, PS and WP. After the install the car does seem to rev a little faster and easier but I really can't say that the difference is substantial. Weighing the small performance gain relative to the cost I don't know if I would do it over again. However, if you are looking for every last bit of power that you can get out of the motor then it definitely will give you a small boost (no pun intended).

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

The fuidampr is a very good investment. Its good for high revving dsms and motors with the balance shafts removed. It smooths out vibrations in the motor that can hurt the bottom end during high rpms. I have a fluidampr and I definatly noticed a difference.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that the balance shafts (which I have eliminated) are only to reduce engine vibration for ride quality and have nothing to do with engine balance, which the oem crank pulley/balancer is for. Otherwise, it would be very unwise for any of us to eliminate the balance shafts considering the possibility of crankwalk, especially on the 7 bolts.

Interesting... I always thought the fluidampr pulley was lighter than stock... I stand corrected.

I didn't know that either, so you helped save me $200. And six weeks shipping time considering that's Slowboy!

I have the Unorthodox light weight pulleys for the alt, PS and WP. After the install the car does seem to rev a little faster and easier but I really can't say that the difference is substantial. Weighing the small performance gain relative to the cost I don't know if I would do it over again. However, if you are looking for every last bit of power that you can get out of the motor then it definitely will give you a small boost (no pun intended).

Yeah any gain in power or reving would be a nice bonus, but the main thing I am after is to lessen the parasitic loss of accessories that is killing my alt's output. These upgrades should greatly stabilize my voltage issues. Plus I need a tune-up anyway and might as well do it all at once.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Hm, that fluidampr crank pully is half a pound heavier than stock. I think I'm going to go with a much cheaper and lighter oem one. I wonder why anyone "upgrades" to that if the oem one is typically good for 80k to 100k miles?

The fuidampr is a very good investment. Its good for high revving dsms and motors with the balance shafts removed. It smooths out vibrations in the motor that can hurt the bottom end during high rpms. I have a fluidampr and I definatly noticed a difference.

This is the same shit I told you on the phone last night... for your car I would just recommend a stock, OEM harmonic dampener. I got the hook up locally so call me when you need one.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that the balance shafts (which I have eliminated) are only to reduce engine vibration for ride quality and have nothing to do with engine balance, which the oem crank pulley/balancer is for. Otherwise, it would be very unwise for any of us to eliminate the balance shafts considering the possibility of crankwalk, especially on the 7 bolts.

The balance shafts do nothing for the balance of the engine, they only lessen the vibrations translate through the car. Eve though you feel more vibration, the engine is not any less in balance. they operate against the phase of the rotating Assembly.

I didn't know that either, so you helped save me $200. And six weeks shipping time considering that's Slowboy!

ouch

 

[staticbrainwash]

B-shafts are counter weighted and counter spun to phase out inherent 4cyl engine vibrations. It has nothing to do with balance like said above. If anything, it's counter productive. By robbing oil pressure, and increasing rotating mass. Which when removed, has slight gains.

 

[JohnTSI]

None of those are smaller pulleys. The trick you spoke of for domestic cars is installing a SMALLER pulley to OVERDRIVE the alternator and produce more voltage at lower engine speeds. If you put the LARGER pulley on the alternator is will turn slower and worsen your problem. If you install the stock sized one you are just putting on a lighter pulley and not doing anything but reducing rotational mass.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

The Unorthodox Racing lightweight pulleys are the same dimensions as stock, just 50 to 80% lighter. And lower rotational mass equals less parasitic loss (load on engine with the more accesories used, ie a/c). Less rotational mass means the pulleys will be able to drive the belts easier, particularly the alt pulley in my case which is my problem when using a/c. This is the same concept as lightweight wheels and 1-piece rotors. Reducing rotational mass is always a good thing.

Underdrive isn't what I was looking for. I'm going with the lighter pulleys.

PS, waterpump, and alt pulleys will cost $325 shipped. Not too bad considering I'm doing a full tune up anyway. So the end cost vs oem is probably half that.

 

[Defiant]

The minuscule weight savings of lighter accessory drive pulleys will do nothing for you- your "parasitic loss" is in grams and ounces, but it makes for good ad copy. I'd check the junkyards for a smaller alternator pulley from something like a Hyundai, or better, put that $325 into a higher-capacity alternator.

 

[JohnTSI]

The minuscule weight savings of lighter accessory drive pulleys will do nothing for you- your "parasitic loss" is in grams and ounces, but it makes for good ad copy. I'd check the junkyards for a smaller alternator pulley from something like a Hyundai, or better, put that $325 into a higher-capacity alternator.

I would respond but Defiant hit the nail on the head. You are just paying 300 for some shinnier puleys in the end.

 

[Smitherines]

The minuscule weight savings of lighter accessory drive pulleys will do nothing for you- your "parasitic loss" is in grams and ounces, but it makes for good ad copy. I'd check the junkyards for a smaller alternator pulley from something like a Hyundai, or better, put that $325 into a higher-capacity alternator.

You mean higher-output (amperage) alternator, as the alternator doesn't store anything, right Defiant?

Just pulling your strings.

I have a 165A Alterstart alternator that is almost new.....

He also already purchased a higher-output alternator, but still suffers from that problem.

Rice, I also agree with Defiant as that will not do much for your power gains at all. What is the alternator's output amperage-wise at 750rpm? The actual rating of the alternator, in your case being 165A, is only at crusing RPMs, so the idle output is without a doubt lower. You say that your power-loss due to the A/C system is terrible at any given RPM, are you sure that you're alternator is able to provide the amount of amperage that you would need? What are you actually powering?

I also find it interesting that the stock 1g OEM replacement alternators are only 65A, while the GVR4 replacements are 90A.

 

[staticbrainwash]

I am just really hard pressed to believe that 165A isn't enough to power what he has. I'm not saying he doesn't know whats up at all, i'm just saying. . . Maybe he's OVER powering and it's causing a problem.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

He also already purchased a higher-output alternator, but still suffers from that problem.

Rice, I also agree with Defiant as that will not do much for your power gains at all. What is the alternator's output amperage-wise at 750rpm? The actual rating of the alternator, in your case being 165A, is only at crusing RPMs, so the idle output is without a doubt lower. You say that your power-loss due to the A/C system is terrible at any given RPM, are you sure that you're alternator is able to provide the amount of amperage that you would need? What are you actually powering?

Right. I already have a high output alt. According to the computer diagnostic printout it came with, it outputs 165A @ 1800 rpm and roughly half that at 900 rpm. My idle in dsmlink is 950 rpm and rock solid. My normal voltage with no accessories on is 13.6 to 13.9v.

I use my Apexi TT to track my voltage and it's pretty accurate according to a multimeter. It blinks when the alternator fails to output enough voltage to maintain charging the battery. This threshhold is about 12.6v. That's the minimum I need with a/c OFF. With a/c on my rpms drop a few hundred rpm and volts drop by about 1.1v accordingly. This feels like losing 50 hp from a dead stop.

Again, I am not looking for any power gains from the pulleys. I am looking for more rpm stability when running all my accessories, especially the a/c which just creates a massive load on my car and drops my volts to low 11s. I think lighter pulleys will lighten the load for when the a/c turns on. If the alternator belt can maintain its speed at any given rpm easier, I believe my voltages will stabilize.

My system has become a pig for amperage and unstable voltage (highly dependent on rpm levels and accessory load) ever since I made my engine cooling system that is constantly regulating my temperatures. I'm not willing to give this up because it is so effective. After I added my SPAL fans I had to move to a 165A alternator because my stock 75A alt couldn't keep my optima yellow top charged.

And I appreciate the suggestions, but I'd rather drop $300 on a few pulleys than go hunt in junk yards for parts. My time is more valuable to me. I'll be ordering my parts monday, hopefully get a full tune-up done in a week. I'll report back and let you all know if it helped or not.

My accessories:

600w sound system
150 psi meth pump
1650 cfm SPAL fan (to battery; 30A fed)
810 cfm SPAL fan (to battery; 20A fed)
Fan controller
Digital boost sender
2 digital gauges
Indiglo gauges
RMT manumatic
Wideband
TT
Radar
GM MAP sensor

 

[Smitherines]

I am just really hard pressed to believe that 165A isn't enough to power what he has. I'm not saying he doesn't know whats up at all, i'm just saying. . . Maybe he's OVER powering and it's causing a problem.

You can't overpower unless your voltage regulator isn't working properly. Amperage is different from voltage. Amperage can be related to tap, its there when you need it. (much like HP, )


Rice, it seems that you have two options. The decision you're making with those pulleys now isn't one of them. You either need to get a smaller alternator pulley, or get an even higher amperage alternator. The 1st option may not be reliable.

From personal experience, I see that even the stock 1g alternator isn't even enough to consistently power stock accessories. Then you add a slightly upgraded system on it, and the lights dim at idle. Id be interested to see if the GVR4 guys have the same problem with their slightly higher amperage alternator.

So lets figure this out, if 65A isnt even enough to run stock car, lights and fogs on, and stereo on, we'll just assume and be safe that the it needs about 75A to run like it should. Then figure another 10-15A to run the AC compressor while everything else is on, thats about 90A right there.

You've got your 165A alternator, and you subtract the 90 from that, you have 75A to work with, and right then and there between the two fans, you subtract 50A, so you have 25A left. Is that 25A enough to run you higher end system, amps, and electric accessories?

Apparently, you don't even have access to 165A at idle.

How is the voltage when you're cruising with everything on?