Crank pulley spins without the crank????

[LV-DSM]

I've installed my new motor and was able to get it running for about 1 minute then it shut down. It would not crank, so I replaced the battery. Now it is cranking again, got fuel and spark, but no start. I wanted to check my timing marks and discovered that the crank pulley had play in it (moves in and out!) The crank botl moves without the pulley. WTF does this mean? I have attached a video. Please help! After 8 years, I'm about to throw in the towel......

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=20056053

 

[oldman]

This is a common issue, your harmonic balance's inner and outer pulley, bounded together by rubber, has separated and needs to be replaced.

 

[1gcrazy]

This is a common issue, your harmonic balance's inner and outer pulley, bounded together by rubber, has separated and needs to be replaced.

Doesn't that usually break the belt? For some reason I had in mind that if that broke while driving that it would fubar everything...

 

[oldman]

Doesn't that usually break the belt? For some reason I had in mind that if that broke while driving that it would fubar everything...

It often snaps or dislodges the alternator belt due to the lateral movement of the pulley, however, the greatest risk is the outer pulley eating into your lower timing belt cover and endangering your timing belt assembly.

 

[LV-DSM]

I just got the harmonic balancer pulley off and it is fine. What had happened is that the timing belt gear on the crank had worked it's way off of the step that keeps it in sync with the crank. It was about 1 inch from the oil pump cover and spinning freely. I pounded it back on, but why did it happen and how can I prevent it from happening again? Now I have to redo the timeing and pray nothing bent...... What do you guys think?

Fortunately the motor has less than 1 minute on it and the alternator and timing belt are unscathed.

 

[92awddsm]

You either forgot to reinstall the woodruff key into the crank or did not reinstall the balance shaft pulley on the crank. I would also expect some bent valves that is why it wouldnt crank anymore.

 

[LV-DSM]

This is a fresh motor from KarKing. The BSE has been done and I am not sure what the woodruff key is. Would that be something that they should have installed?

 

[oldman]

Are you missing the huge washer that goes in between the crank sprocket and crank bolt? Did you torque the crank bolt properly?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

you purchased a complete longblock that already had all its timing components installed?
If yes, then KarKing is responsible for your mishap.
If no, then you are responsible for your mishap.

But either way I'm sorry your new engine got fubar'd.
Maybe the damage is minimal?
Good luck.

 

[LV-DSM]

Timing was set when I got it. The gear moves freely and there is no washer. See attached pictures.

 

[oldman]

There is your problem right there, the washer should sit right on the ring on the outer edge of the sprocket holding it in place. Time to call KarKing.

 

[92awddsm]

The woodruff key is the square key that goes in the crank snout and the groove inside the pulley slides onto it. This is what locks the pulley to the crank to keep it from spinning.

Anyway, the washer is missing. Did you install the bolt into the end of the crank or did karking? Whoever did is who forgot the washer and caused the damage.

 

[LV-DSM]

I understand , the Woodruff key is installed, but Karking never installed the washer. Oh well, thanks for all the help guys. I've been waiting for 4 years to get this car running and bled and sweated through an entire summer to get this turd on the road. I guess I'll pull the head and check the valves. We'll see what happens. I most likely lost my original invoice for the motor. I've pretty much had it. Keep an eye on the classified.

BTW. You guys have always been great! Thanks for all of the fast informative replies.

 

[LV-DSM]

Update. Karking told me that they are not responsible for installing the crank bolt or anything that would hold the gear on. George recommends that I get a valve job. Unbelievable.....

 

[laserspeeddemon]

I would be calling my credit card company about now and refusing charges since they want to sell you a bad motor. $1300 for a rebuilt long block. Sounds like they are trying to doop you on the warranty.

4G63 DOHC "6BOLT" TURBO REBUILT LONGBLOCK EXCHANGE COMES WITH A STANDARD 6 MONTH WARRANTY CORE DEPOSIT IS $150.00 BALANCE SHAFTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED AND ENGINE COMES A "MLS" METAL HEADGASKET.

Link to quote:
http://www.karking.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=183

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Yeah, thats outrageous, especially for a DSMTuners Supporting Vendor. Call your credit card company and get your money back. They can't not be responsible for incorrectly assembling an engine that failed on the first start, due to said negligent assembly.

I'd also call back to KarKing and make sure you tell the owner whats up.
You could also remind him that this issue is being publicized and it would go a long way to the community to find that KarKing actually IS a reputable company with policies they actually stand by.

Isn't it implicit that when you order a complete, timed engine that it is going to be assembled properly and well..actually run?

 

[silver eclipse]

Did the woodruff key vibrate out? Even with out the washer it should not be able to spin freely, just would slip off the front.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Yeah, thats outrageous, especially for a DSMTuners Supporting Vendor. Call your credit card company and get your money back. They can't not be responsible for incorrectly assembling an engine that failed on the first start, due to said negligent assembly.

I'd also call back to KarKing and make sure you tell the owner whats up.
You could also remind him that this issue is being publicized and it would go a long way to the community to find that KarKing actually IS a reputable company with policies they actually stand by.

Isn't it implicit that when you order a complete, timed engine that it is going to be assembled properly and well..actually run?

Ya, let them know that I will never to buisness with them and that the word has already spread to another DSM forum.

Did the woodruff key vibrate out? Even with out the washer it should not be able to spin freely, just would slip off the front.

If the forgot to put the washer on, it's reasonable to assume the forgot the woodruff key as well.

 

[LV-DSM]

Thanks for all of your replies. I called George twice, the second time after he hung up on me. Please allow me to elaborate and forgive me if I describe the parts improperly because I am not an engine builder. That is why I had the motor built elsewhere.

The part of the crank that the gear slides onto has a notch that the gear slides onto, preventing it from rotating freely without the crank spinning with it. I am assuming that that is the woodruff key, although it apears to be part of the crank. The gear itself slides freely onto or off of the crank overtop of the bolt. There is and never was anything besides the tension of the timing belt securing it. This part is important.... when I recieved the motor the bolt was on the block. I guess that I should have double checked to see if the gear was secured, but being that it was a complete motor minus manifols and valve cover, I did not.

During the 1st phone call I had explained this to George and he flat out said to take it to a machine shop and get a valve job, then go Satan and buy the washer to secure the gear. "Well, no... you should fix it and this shouldn't have happened in the first place if it were assembled properly." He replied that if I were to check the picture in the ebay aution, I would find that there is no crank bolt in that picture and that he does not include it or the washer in his engines. He persisted in telling me that he was not responsible and that the person who installed it was negligent. I told him that this was bullshit and insisted that he do the right thing and he hung up on me.

If you have ever seen their auctions on Ebay, you would know that he uses a stock pic in all of his 6 bolt auctions. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89-9...019QQitemZ290171066278QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

After checking the photo I called back and asked that he explain the Ebay photo and why that picture showed the bolt installed. He said that it was taken 6 years ago and they no longer install that bolt and washer. I said that I had no motor to use as a core and asked how the bolt got onto my motor since I never had one to install. He explained to me that he sells hundreds of motors every month and that this has happened in the past "due to improper installation." He then told me to buy the washer at the dealer and it was a $6 item and asked what he could do to make me happy. Knowing that a full refund would be out of the question with this guy, I asked that he at least repair the head if I find damage this weekend. He agreed, but said go ahead and ship it and call him when it's on it's way. I have a bad feeling that I will eat the shipping and if I do see a repaired head, it will be inferior or worse yet, never see it again. I am frustrated at best.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm pissed!

 

[LV-DSM]

Anyone have a picture of the actual washer and Woodruff key in question? This would help greatly.

 

[Street Surgeon]

I had always wondered what kind of business KarKing ran, and about the quality of their builds. I guess that's irrelevant now as I'd never do business with them unless they made this right. Nowhere in their description does it state that they do not include the crank bolt and washer with their build. They do however state that they don't include an oilpan or valvecover... Interesting.

An assembled longblock should come ready for installation, especially as they bill them. Upon purchasing their longblock you should NOT have to check to ensure every single bolt and washer is in it's place IT SHOULD BE THERE.

They should make this right, if they don't I'll never consider buying from them and I'll be sure to spread the word about their shady practices as well.

The woodruff key is a simple half-moon shaped piece of metal that (basically) looks like if you cut a nickel in half. The "key" slips into the slot on your crank snout and sticks up a little. When the key is inserted in to your crank it sticks up a little bit, the gear that is in your pics slides on to the crank and the slot on the gear slides over the key. This holds it in place, and then the bolt and washer hold that gear in place. If the motor you recieved already comes timed then removing the gear/sprocket to put a woodruff key in place could potentially throw the motor out of time. At any rate they should have just included the three dollar washer!

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Anyone have a picture of the actual washer and Woodruff key in question? This would help greatly.

The longer you wait, the harder you make it for yourself. I'm telling you right now. CALL YOUR CREDIT CARD COMPANY!!!!!

 

[LV-DSM]

First thing in the morning.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Wait, did you pay through paypal?

 

[RoasT BeeF]

This is insane. The block came assembled with a timing belt already installed when you got it right? I consider the crank sprocket bolt AND washer to be part of the timing system. Why in the world would anyone install a timing belt without bolting the crank sprocket to the crank? It does not make sense. The guy is talking out his ass. He really expects people to believe he assembles every motor without bolting the sprocket to the crank? Bottom line is he knows he messed up and he doesnt have the balls to make it right. What a joke. All the business he has gotten from this site and now hes just going to stab you in the back. I recommed posting on www.vendors-reviewed.com

Never will I consider doing business with Kar King.

Outrageous.